tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post7467559908159448679..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: God is Not Beyond LogicMatt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-11659657242018451792008-08-19T19:24:00.000-07:002008-08-19T19:24:00.000-07:00That's a nice tight little circle you've got going...That's a nice tight little circle you've got going there R.C. God creates logic, and truth is whatever is in the mind of God. How do I know? God said so in the Bible. How do I know that what the Bible says is true? Truth is whatever comes from the mind of God. <BR/><BR/>How about some independent grounds for thinking any of these baffling claims are true? <BR/><BR/>MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-57588572368842850352008-08-18T22:44:00.000-07:002008-08-18T22:44:00.000-07:00I stated God created logic, so the objection would...I stated God created logic, so the objection would be raised, so God is irrational? I would respond by saying absolutely not!!! Logic is created by God and is a reflection of his character and nature. <BR/><BR/>If God does not use logic then how does he make distinctions? We must understand God does not think in terms of premises and conclusions clearly the Bible demonstrates this because he knows all things. God made everything and sustains it. Truth is whatever corresponds to the mind of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-4880790489644824462008-08-18T22:26:00.000-07:002008-08-18T22:26:00.000-07:00I am not trying to criticise any of you, but it is...I am not trying to criticise any of you, but it is clear you have not look at the main Christian views concerning logic and God. I recommend Gordon Clark and Cornelius Van Til. Personally, I believe logic like everything else was created by God and derives from his divine nature. However, there are other Christian's that believe logic is an attribute of God's nature like Clark and John Frame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-66910770352713351032008-08-04T13:57:00.000-07:002008-08-04T13:57:00.000-07:00"approved membership"Reminds me of a line by Grouc...<I>"approved membership"</I><BR/><BR/>Reminds me of a line by Groucho Marx.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-17088103179552278962008-08-04T10:31:00.000-07:002008-08-04T10:31:00.000-07:00Reg,Same thing. Evaluating "results" is identical ...Reg,<BR/><BR/>Same thing. Evaluating "results" is identical to evaluating "consequences." The problems that arise in consequences are in the results, since results <I>are</I> a kind of consequences. How you can evaluate them to be indicators still needs to be said, which is essentially my point in bringing up the fact we need something more than mere evidence (and their results) to do that. It requires a higher-order standard of analysis, a meta-theory of evidence (and results), if you will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-72937612929961162222008-08-04T06:25:00.000-07:002008-08-04T06:25:00.000-07:00I would call these consequential arguments or stan...<I>I would call these consequential arguments or standards because they appeal to outcomes (either past, expected or otherwise).</I><BR/><BR/>I wouldn't use that term, because it sounds too similar to "argument from consequences," which it is not. It is an argument from results, with the achievement of results being an indicator of the ability to both explain and predict reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-82797098710960370142008-08-02T23:48:00.000-07:002008-08-02T23:48:00.000-07:00I will consider it Matt, as long as I can post it ...I will consider it Matt, as long as I can post it on my blog and you link it to there, as well. I am extremely busy as of late, and right now am in a writing rut of sorts (thinking of laying off writing for awhile and focusing on reading massive amounts). Maybe I'll use it as an outline to give me something to write for the Fall writing contest, since I can't think of what I want to write on and just don't have time to finish the research project I was working on at the start of summer. I will let you know what's up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-67292044401670745532008-08-02T08:56:00.000-07:002008-08-02T08:56:00.000-07:00David Ellis, Reginald Selkirk, Bryan Goodrich:I am...David Ellis, Reginald Selkirk, Bryan Goodrich:<BR/><BR/>I am preparing to teach my Atheism Seminar this fall at CSUS. I'm going to have my students interacting on a Wikispaces message board. It'll have a password and approved membership. It would be cool if you guys wanted to participate, at your leisure, in those discussions. <BR/><BR/>MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-61105091009410633912008-08-02T08:54:00.000-07:002008-08-02T08:54:00.000-07:00Bryan, this is a really nice comment. If you'd be...Bryan, this is a really nice comment. If you'd be willing to dress it up a bit, make it stand alone, I'd like to post in on the main page as a special guest blog. <BR/><BR/>I only have time to add a couple of brief ideas. It's interesting to list the various criteria by which we might judge the adequacy of these second order epistemic norms you're mentioning. Atheists are fond of saying, "There's no evidence!!" But as you say, that's a mistake. What counts as evidence, how it counts, and what hypotheses it confirms or disconfirms ultimately is a function of these second order norms. Evidence is not an independent, objective phenomena, but a relation between subject and environment. And the criteria by which we can judge some epistemic norms to be better than other, and ultimately judge the truth better or worse by them, are factors like logical coherence, probabilistic coherence, internal adequacy, ability to explain all the available evidence, fit with other kinds of experience and phenomena we observe, and so on. My Coherence and Atheism post is relevant: <BR/>http://atheismblog.blogspot.com/2007/09/coherence-and-atheism.html<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks, and think about making this stand alone for an entry. <BR/><BR/>MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-34642972930733024532008-08-01T10:53:00.000-07:002008-08-01T10:53:00.000-07:00reginaldNo it doesn't. There's that pesky "evidenc...reginald<BR/><BR/><B>No it doesn't. There's that pesky "evidence" thing.</B><BR/><BR/>The evidence is the same. Neither the elf-scientist or the physicist has first-hand experience with the center of the star. We infer its mechanics based on the evidence, the larger body of scientific knowledge and <I>theory</I>. Where the elf-scientist fails is that it has no coherence with the larger body of knowledge. It is isolated, unique, and particularly contrary to our knowledge. But that is not the standard of evaluation presented here and that is what I was getting at. Evidence alone is useless for theoretical considerations because theories will be underdetermined by that standard. We need <I>systematically</I> look beyond evidence. So to be clear, both theories rely on the <I>same</I> evidence. The inference is that what the evidence suggests in, in the one case, solar mechanics as we know them, and in the other case, elf mechanics as conceived. They both equally express the evidence, but it takes higher-order standards to evaluate those explanations because first-order data (i.e., evidence) provides nothing for that critique. <BR/><BR/>As for alien abductees, they are in the same boat as those with some religious experience. The same fundamental element of personal experience (personal evidence, if you will) remains a point of contention since evidence alone does not provide an evaluative basis for higher-order inferences (viz. theories).<BR/><BR/>More to the point, you say we don't know that those Gods you listed exist, but we do know people have hallucinations. Well, just like no one knows if the mind (independently) exists, you will not give a reasonable objection to it by appealing to mere evidence as people have done here in regard to religious experiences and beliefs. <BR/><BR/>I'm not saying there is a good or strong point the religious person has. My point is to demonstrate two things: <BR/><BR/>(1) Personal experience keeps us epistemically weak, both for the religious person who appeals to his small sample to infer something about God, and to the atheist who appeals to evidence as a standard against general theories about, say, God. In short, it permits healthy skepticism to exist.<BR/><BR/>(2) To point out that for anyone to take a stronger stance against the religious person, these weak arguments appealing to evidence will not suffice, because of (1). To be brief, a decision-theoretical approach to choosing epistemic norms and standards to keep our epistemology, say, robust (always important, to me at least) requires us to consider higher-order bases of evaluation that first-order evidence fails to provide. Instead, as I expressed here, you criticize the elf theory of stars <I>because</I> it makes no sense, not of the evidence, but of the larger system of knowledge it belongs to. We don't find concepts of independent minds or Gods lacking rational acceptance because there's no evidence (do <I>not</I> make arguments from ignorance) or because we don't agree or find weak the theories based on, say, personal evidence, but because the consequence of those beliefs run contrary to our general knowledge; or, maybe, because it weakens, say, robustness (there's many angles one can take from this kind of argument).<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, appeal to the last comment you left about what Reason(logic+science) brings us is another contentious standard to appeal to, which I've heard Christians throw at me in one or another form (including negatively). We wouldn't say, e.g., that science isn't science if it doesn't produce technology. That would be absurd (an argument I have heard about how to classify something as science or not). Christians make a similar appeal in that "we wouldn't have the economy we have today if it wasn't for Christianity in the Middle Ages.." or the negative position "at least Christians don't do ..." I would call these consequential arguments or standards because they appeal to outcomes (either past, expected or otherwise). They are lousy positions to argue from and anyone can really use them. They provide nothing to the quality of the discussion. I have written more about the problems with consequentialism <A HREF="http://weblog.xanga.com/darkwolfofvoid/661163580/consequentialism.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-41940871369015149762008-07-31T13:52:00.000-07:002008-07-31T13:52:00.000-07:00Thus, if it is the case that there is no foundatio...<I>Thus, if it is the case that there is no foundational support for either faith or logic, then we merely have an arbitrary battle of "absolutes."<BR/><BR/>Thoughts?</I><BR/><BR/>Reason (logic + science) gets results. We have lasers, semiconductors, nuclear reactors, antibiotics, organ transplants, vaccines, etc. etc. etc. and we didn't get them by having faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-1661207131856375422008-07-30T13:01:00.000-07:002008-07-30T13:01:00.000-07:00Here's a hypothetical situation and a good questio...<I>Here's a hypothetical situation and a good question to think about (I know it has a lot of faults, but just imagine with me) - if a person could grow up in an environment devoid of influence towards any belief system at all, what would they come up with on their own? Would they be atheist? Would they eventually move towards the idea supernatural beings? Would they believe that they themselves were a god? or would the thought even cross their mind? I think that they would be led to think that there is something greater, some higher power. But then again, I am a little biased in my thinking.</I><BR/><BR/>There are some unspecified points which might greatly impact the outcome. Would this person be educated as to scientific explanations for natural phenomena? If not, he might grow up to credit supernatural intervention for rain, thunder, the appearance of wild animals, meteors, etc. The potential result of such an experiment is tabulated in books like this: <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Gods-Michael-Jordan/dp/1856266362/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217447864&sr=1-1" REL="nofollow">Encyclopedia of Gods</A><BR/><BR/><I>I think that they would be led to think that there is something greater...</I><BR/><BR/>"Led to" by what? You specified "an environment devoid of influence towards any belief system at all." You seem to contradict yourself. No influence = no leading.<BR/><BR/>Suppose you put many people through such an experiment, do you think those who tended towards supernatural entities would come up with the same gods? History indicates otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-46171439367242442042008-07-30T12:52:00.000-07:002008-07-30T12:52:00.000-07:00Now, this elf theory explains the data just as wel...<I>Now, this elf theory explains the data just as well as the physicist's theory explains the data.</I><BR/><BR/>No it doesn't. There's that pesky "evidence" thing.<BR/><BR/>As for personal experiences, a sizable number of people believe, with all apparent sincerity, that they have been abducted by aliens, taken aboard spaceships and probed sexually. Are their personal experiences more or less likely than personal religious experiences? Why is it that people who have personal religious experiences generally see imagery associated with their prior religious environment? Why didn't the author who had the heart attack see Odin or Krishna instead of Yahweh, while people in Hindu culture see their own religious imagery?<BR/><BR/>We know that hallucinations and delusions occur. No one would contest that. We do NOT know that Yahweh/Krishna/Odin/Flying Spaghetti Monster exist, let alone that they communicate with people through hallucinations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-36005200772599437532008-07-30T00:01:00.000-07:002008-07-30T00:01:00.000-07:00They them may have a concept of many lesser but eq...They them may have a concept of many lesser but equal gods.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-6302972294589264362008-07-29T18:47:00.000-07:002008-07-29T18:47:00.000-07:00One would not think of a greater power than themse...One would not think of a greater power than themselves unless their environment taught them such a concept (tribalism, theism, capitalism).<BR/><BR/>Ideas come from experience -- they are not innate -- they are culturally based.<BR/><BR/>Imagine if children were brought up in a classless society where everyone shared power.<BR/><BR/>Imagine if they were taught it was wrong for any one entity to wield authoritarian power over another.<BR/><BR/>Then the "natural" belief would be in ontological equality between beings -- no distinction of value between the subject and the other.<BR/><BR/>There would not be an ontological hierarchy as we have now -- a false "natural" belief created by the culture we live in.<BR/><BR/>Children, for example, have to learn to distinguish themselves from their mother's body, the environment around them -- they perceive the world in wholeness.<BR/><BR/>It is only after cultural training that we begin to see differences in the world -- differences based off of our cultural milieu.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, if the cultural milieu was non-hierarchal, egalitarian in form, it would not be "natural" for children to form ideas about a "greater" authoritarian being.<BR/><BR/>They would understand authority, to be sure, if it was taught, but authority following from the principle of equality, not a greater being.<BR/><BR/>--SDOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-43056105338871862092008-07-29T12:04:00.000-07:002008-07-29T12:04:00.000-07:00jamie said "if a person could grow up in an enviro...jamie said "if a person could grow up in an environment devoid of influence towards any belief system at all, what would they come up with on their own? Would they be atheist? Would they eventually move towards the idea supernatural beings? Would they believe that they themselves were a god? or would the thought even cross their mind? I think that they would be led to think that there is something greater, some higher power."<BR/><BR/>Jamie, I agree with your assumption that such a person would likely come to believe in some sort of supernatural being, but I reject your conclusion that this would be evidence for such a being. <BR/><BR/>I think this is just evidence that human thinking, on it's own and without the assistance of the scientific process, is inherently flawed. Another way to put it is that I believe that people have inherent biases which do not have to be learned, but have simply been handed to us from evolution. <BR/><BR/>For example, Michael Shermer has theorized that when it comes to humans noticing cause and effect relationships, believing in false-positives (e.g. dancing and praying to the rain gods causes rain) is less costly to the species than not believing in real relationships (e.g. watering and fertilizing helps our crops). As a result we are wired to err on the side of believing some cause and effect relationships that simply aren't true. We are genetically gullible.<BR/><BR/>That is just one of many examples. Humans are guilty of so many kinds of poor logic that scientists and philosophers have categorized and studied them to help us recognize and avoid them. Your hypothetical man raised in isolation from others would not benefit from this knowledge and so, while avoiding learned biases, would still be victim to his own "genetic" biases.<BR/><BR/>Basically I believe that science is currently the best and perhaps the only tool capable of helping man overcome his inherent biases and flawed logic. You may argue, as some have tried, that science is just another kind of bias no better than any other belief system. I fundamentally and most strongly disagree, because science has a track record of progress that no other belief system can come close too. Science is a tool for removing biases, not a bias itself.Ungulliblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17446626499794759252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-89792468635405844042008-07-28T15:09:00.000-07:002008-07-28T15:09:00.000-07:00(Playing devil's advocate as usual.)So what forces...(Playing devil's advocate as usual.)<BR/><BR/>So what forces one to privilege logic over faith? <BR/><BR/>It seems to be purely pragmatic. We atheists think that logic is more beneficial than faith. I think that's good justification, but the other side can make the same argument.<BR/><BR/>There doesn't seem to be anything ontological that the believer or non-believer can point to as justification for their center.<BR/><BR/>Thus, if it is the case that there is no foundational support for either faith or logic, then we merely have an arbitrary battle of "absolutes."<BR/><BR/>Thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-76984681197776660332008-07-28T00:47:00.000-07:002008-07-28T00:47:00.000-07:00David,I'm not literally caricaturing your argument...David,<BR/><BR/>I'm not literally caricaturing your argument, but let me pose your response this way.<BR/><BR/>Contrary to what physicists think, the sun is really not a hot ball of plasma constantly burning hydrogen in its core. It is really just a workshop of magical elves from another dimension and that is like their "smoke stack" of their workshop. Hell, maybe the work for the great Santa Clause. <BR/><BR/>Now, this elf theory explains the data just as well as the physicist's theory explains the data. So do we not just say they both are wrong or at least, in this case, the scientist is wrong? <BR/><BR/>Of course, science has much more going for it that I will not get into here, but your argument by appealing to alternative theories is essentially the same. You admit that you are not trying to prove the one, only that the other is underdetermined by it. But I believe it was Quine who asserted all theories are underdetermined (I don't agree to that extent). I find two problems with this approach.<BR/><BR/>First of all, simply demonstrating an alternative theory, even if it has some metaphysical or epistemological support behind it the other might lack (though, the religious experience isn't devoid of its metaphysical and epistemological theories, either) does not demonstrate failure in either of them. In fact, we would have to say <I>both</I> the religious and psychological explanation are equally unacceptable. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, you admit that you do not prove the hallucination is correct. In fact, you cannot (would be kind of impossible to perform a historical experiment of such). If that is the case, they are both equally worthless. <BR/><BR/>But I do get your point, if one assents to either of them, they can just as well assent to the other. But that is not a counter-argument. That's like saying we have two theories for how a certain valley formed. Simply because we have two equilikely theories that explain the event does not mean we dismiss one or both of them. In fact, in science, we would assert them both as being the claims to appeal to, but only inasmuch as we recognize the alternative. <BR/><BR/>Now, does the religious person do this? Yes, sometimes they do. Some will assent to the fact it might have all just been "in their head" but that doesn't remove them from assenting to that belief. A clear reason for that would probably be the fact personal experience has a greater prominence compared to something detached from them, and without outside evidence, to the person, the personal interpretation dominates. <BR/><BR/>The whole point of this challenge was how do we evaluate personal evidence/experience. You say if a person is rational they should drop the religious experience as evidence because it is just as likely to be a hallucination, regardless if you can validate the hallucination argument or not. But that kind of argument would be like a scientist saying another's theory for the valley formation is just wrong, regardless if he can point out his theory is more accurate, or like someone posing another theory, like the elf theory of suns, simply to demonstrate the underdetermined nature of one's narrative of their experience. You say that these are essentially enough to <I>defeat</I> the argument. How? Does the scientists rejection of one theory for the other defeat the other? Does an elf theory of suns conceived defeat the physicists theory? The latter is clearly absurd, and the scientist wouldn't be practicing science at all. Yet you throw the same kind of refutation to religious experience as if you actually defeated the argument. It looks more like hand-waving to me. <BR/><BR/>Note, it is one thing to say the argument is just weak, untenable and not applicable to anything beyond the person, and another to say it is wrong and defeated because of ... You have taken the latter position saying you basically have a counterargument. It isn't (unless we also accept the absurd and unscientific examples I provided, as well). What you have adequately provided is justified reasons for anyone else to <I>not</I> assent to the person's belief. What I am after, however, is an actual counterargument. How do we demonstrate that it is unreasonable for the person experiencing it not to believe what they believe. <BR/><BR/>Don't take my direction here in the converse, however. I am saying having good reason for the non-experienced to not assent to X is not proof against the experienced to not assent to X, but that doesn't imply the experienced person's assent to X is good enough reason for anyone else to assent to X. In fact, that kind of claim would not make sense at all (i.e., it's like saying "I experienced X so you, too, should believe in what I say" yeah, right! <BR/><BR/>But I bring that up because it is critical here. It is one thing for someone to believe X and another for him to claim <I>you</I> should believe X. Likewise, it is two different things to say we should not believe in X, and that some person who experienced X should not believe in it. Why? Because evidence is <I>not</I> homogeneous. It would seem rather odd to say we only have one kind of evidence and it is universal across the board, and that any rational person who assents to any argument must be using this standard evidence to get to that claim, and anyone not with it is wrong (that just comes off as epistemic bigotry, really; unfortunately, I have met a few people who do follow those kinds of notions. They are easily dismissed). If we recognize that evidence comes in many shapes and forms, then we have to identify the <I>kind</I> of evidence in use by the experienced to claim their assent to their belief, because it <I>is</I> different from, say, the evidence of proving how solar mechanics work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-73859034502042211642008-07-25T08:24:00.000-07:002008-07-25T08:24:00.000-07:00Additionally, if we accept there is a similarity t...<B><BR/>Additionally, if we accept there is a similarity that weaves itself throughout cultures in regard to religious experiences, how do we disjoin that from anything religious?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Why would I try to "disjoin that from anything religious"?<BR/><BR/>Obviously, its religious. That doesn't mean it isn't a figment of the human imagination and psyche though.<BR/><BR/>And nothing about the similarities among religious visions and myths (I'm a lifelong student of mythology so I'm, of course, aware of the common themes running through the religions, religious vision, dreams, alchemy and, for that matter, the experiences of schizophrenics) makes it any more likely that they have a divine source than a purely psychological one.<BR/><BR/>Understand that I am not trying to prove the psychological hypothesis. Merely pointing out it at least as good an explanation for the data in question. Therefore the argument from religious experience fails.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-31501471679552087272008-07-25T08:18:00.000-07:002008-07-25T08:18:00.000-07:00And by hallucination here I am referring to an exp...And by hallucination here I am referring to an experience coming ONLY from the believers psyche.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7367603611507991322008-07-25T08:15:00.000-07:002008-07-25T08:15:00.000-07:00Bryan, my argument against his claim is very simpl...Bryan, my argument against his claim is very simple. <BR/><BR/>There is no evidence within the content of his experience which makes it more likely than not to be from God rather than from his own psyche.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, it doesn't constitute evidence God exists.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>But that kind of response is not evidence or justified inference against the man's claims from personal experience.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>My argument was not that his experience must be hallucination.<BR/><BR/>It was that its just as likely to be hallucination (even without the fact that religious experiences are usually mutually contradictory). If this is the case then the experience doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever that God exists (even for the person having the experience, if they are evaluating the experience rationally, which, however, they're usually not).<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>But to get to the quote, you say there are contradictory visions between people and cultures? Many anthropology and philosophy of religion studies demonstrate the exact opposite of that claim. Child and Child's compilation in "Religion and Magic in the Lives of Traditional Peoples" shows many fundamental themes that are amongst cultures when it comes to practices of religion and magic.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Having common elements doesn't make two visions noncontradictory.<BR/><BR/><BR/>An ancient Greek sees a vision in which he appears before the throne of Zeus, king of the gods, with all the other gods around him.<BR/><BR/>An ancient Hebrew sees a vision in which he appears before the throne of God and is told there is but one God and all other "gods" are but false idols.<BR/><BR/>Whatever similarities there may be between religious visions they are still in great disagreement---they cannot both be accurate visions of the nature of the supernatural being or beings ruling the universe (if any do).<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Therefore, my question then, is, since your response is typical, what justification is there for excluding a relation between personal experiences (hallucination or not) and religious communications?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I never excluded the possibility that the visions are real. I simply pointed out that they are as well, at least, accounted for by the hallucination hypothesis as the divine communication hypothesis. And thats all that is necessary to defeat the argument from religious experience.<BR/><BR/>For the hallucination hypothesis to be ruled out, all that is necessary is for the vision to provide information the person could not have had and which is verifiable later.<BR/><BR/>But the beings appearing in visions never seem to provide that.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-34893852985408695002008-07-25T00:59:00.000-07:002008-07-25T00:59:00.000-07:00David,You say, "especially given how mutually cont...David,<BR/><BR/>You say, "especially given how mutually contradictory most visions are from one person and one culture to another."<BR/><BR/>I think we can say we're not making a post hoc fallacy by ascribing the man's visions to his physical trauma (convenient he has the visions when he has a heart attack and at no other time). But that kind of response is not evidence or justified inference against the man's claims from personal experience. EVEN IF one is merely having a hallucination that does not mean he isn't talking to God. Maybe that is the mechanism by which gods communicate to us mortals! It only becomes a counter-claim IF we assume there is no, and cannot be any, connection between hallucinations and communicating with the supernatural. What basis can we make that assumption? <BR/><BR/>But to get to the quote, you say there are contradictory visions between people and cultures? Many anthropology and philosophy of religion studies demonstrate the exact <I>opposite</I> of that claim. Child and Child's compilation in "Religion and Magic in the Lives of Traditional Peoples" shows many fundamental themes that are amongst cultures when it comes to practices of religion and magic. Mircea Eliade, in numerous text but most notably in The Sacred and the Profane concentrates on the philosophical similarities between numerous cultures throughout time and the symbols that weave themselves throughout. Additionally, we even see in drug culture that many hallucinations <I>are</I> in fact similar. The literature is vast on the similarities, so the generalization about the differences just seems rather misplaced. Of course, one can come up with any underdetermined theory to narrate why these similarities occur, we have a similar physiology that we share and it all expresses itself similarly and we express that similarly in our culture, habits and practices. But such a leap of an inference would be made without evidence if we just threw that narration out because it works (I can just as well say gnomes do it, and it would be as valid!)<BR/><BR/>Therefore, my question then, is, since your response is typical, what justification is there for excluding a relation between personal experiences (hallucination or not) and religious communications? Additionally, if we accept there is a similarity that weaves itself throughout cultures in regard to religious experiences, how do we disjoin that from anything religious? Since it, too, suffers the same evidential limitations as the first question brings out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-43492892902783192452008-07-23T12:26:00.000-07:002008-07-23T12:26:00.000-07:00david - great answers. i like the way you think. ...david - great answers. i like the way you think. I was definitely NOT saying that atheists think they are gods. i was just trying to come up with a few different scenarios to fit the hypothetical example.<BR/><BR/>and about the conversation you had with the author, that's a typical result - no real conclusion, just the arrival at an impasse and the other person not being 'converted'. <BR/><BR/>at the end of the day though, i wish that more atheists would be friends with more believers instead of us constructing barriers. in fact, if anybody lives near Philly, look me up and we'll go out for some beers!Jamiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935856786211723015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7163289578246535642008-07-23T09:18:00.000-07:002008-07-23T09:18:00.000-07:00Now, the second typical response a Christian would...<B><BR/>Now, the second typical response a Christian would propose would be this: but my personal experience (say, they had a vision like so many in the Bible have) proves God to me (and maybe the Bible, too, since if God talks to them personally and tells them the contradictions in the Canon are not really contradictions, he has to be right!). How do you response to personal evidence such as that?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I had a long series of email exchanges with the science fiction writer John C. Wright discussing this very topic after he responded to a comment I made on a blog wondering how his conversion to theism (eventually Catholicism, but he hadn't taken that step at the time of our discussion) would influence his writing.<BR/><BR/>Wright, who had been an atheist, had a heart attack and saw 3 visions during his recovery which convinced him God was talking to him (and, of course, therefore exists).<BR/><BR/>Basically, he and I discussed the argument from religious experience. Me taking the position that such experiences as his are well accounted for by the hallucination hypothesis and, therefore, poor evidence that theism is true (especially given how mutually contradictory most visions are from one person and one culture to another).<BR/><BR/>A long debate on the topic ensued with, of course, neither of us being convinced by the other.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-44114607566684570502008-07-23T09:03:00.000-07:002008-07-23T09:03:00.000-07:00Why would it be irrational to avoid happiness and ...<B><BR/>Why would it be irrational to avoid happiness and pleasure? Aren't they feelings? What do they have to do with reason and intellect?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>It would be irrational because happiness and pleasure are intrinsically desirable things.<BR/><BR/>You seem to have this strange idea that reason is opposed to emotion.<BR/><BR/>It isn't. Emotion is only in conflict with reason if emotion is allowed to influence our belief formation processes.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise its in no conflict with our rationality.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>What good is a belief if it doesn't make you feel anything? <BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I never said a belief shouldn't make you feel anything. But that feeling should not be allowed to influence one's judgement as to whether the belief is true.<BR/><BR/>A mundane example: if I believe a girl I have feelings for is in love with me that would, obviously fill me with great pleasure. But the fact it would make me happy has no bearing on whether its true and, therefore, its rational to do our best to disregard how happy it would make us in judging how she feels about us.<BR/><BR/>We would view a friend that had never spoken to the pretty waitress at the local coffee shop but who is convinced (in the absence of a shred of evidence) that she's madly in love with him to be off his rocker.....and rightly so.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>If you're not passionate about it, it's worthless.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Again, not allowing emotion to influence our judgement about a propositions truth or falsity does not mean not having feelings, even strong ones, concerning the proposition (see example above).<BR/><BR/>It just means we should be all the more careful to think as objectively and rationally as we can when our emotions are strongly engaged.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>It does seem to me that you shed your turned your back on one set of biases to embrace another set. <BR/></B><BR/><BR/>What he did (I did the same) is change my mind despite the strong bias against that change---because that's what my rational faculties were leading me to think.<BR/><BR/>That can happen. We all see mundane examples of it. John is convinced his wife is loyal (strong bias against the belief she's unfaithful to him). But he walks into the bedroom hearing a crash outside the open window. A set of boxer shorts on the floor that aren't his and his wife in the bed looking very guilty.<BR/><BR/>Despite his bias, his mind has probably changed---his wife is not loyal.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Atheists are biased against the idea of God.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>That depends on what you mean by biased. If being convinced the existence of God is implausible is a "bias", then sure.<BR/><BR/>I also have a bias against believe in fairies, by that reckoning.<BR/><BR/>But what we usually mean by bias includes a preference that the belief one is biased toward be true.<BR/><BR/>For example, I have an emotional bias in favor of extraterrestrial intelligence----I would love for it to exist and for scientists to pick up a radio signal from an alien civilization.<BR/><BR/>But I see no rational reason to think its likely to ever happen. Even if there is intelligent life out there, it might be so rare as to occur only in one out of a million galaxies---and then we'd probably never hear from them.<BR/><BR/>One's emotional preferences (biases) do not have to influence one's judgment.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>So if I myself and you and everyone else who's posting here could lay aside all of our preconceived ideas, then spend years and years searching for meaning and truth using reason and research, we would eventually come to the conclusion that there is a god.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Many of us atheists actually did that. And concluded that there was no reason to think God a plausible hypothesis (understand, most of us don't rule it out absolutely---I don't believe in werewolves, either, but I'm willing to be convinced if good evidence is put forward).<BR/><BR/>You can believe us or not. <BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Here's a hypothetical situation and a good question to think about (I know it has a lot of faults, but just imagine with me) - if a person could grow up in an environment devoid of influence towards any belief system at all.....<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I've mulled that particular thought experiment over myself.<BR/><BR/>To have the person's belief or nonbelief be a rational one, though, we would need to add a modification.<BR/><BR/>The person must be brought up and trained to be highly rational. To understand and employed critical thinking. To think logically and rationally. To not allow his preferences to skew his judgement.<BR/><BR/>I doubt such a person would become a theist or supernaturalist (largely because people who make a strong effort to become like that tend to loose their supernaturalist beliefs).<BR/><BR/>One left to his own devices with no guidance toward thinking rationally might well become a supernaturalist---even without being taught supernaturalism is true.<BR/><BR/>Which indicates, I think, that humans are prone to jump to the wrong conclusions and often think anthropomorphically.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>Would they believe that they themselves were a god? or would the thought even cross their mind?<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I hope you're not trying to claim we atheists consider ourselves gods.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.com