tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post6530791815459137729..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: A Paradox for Christianity: Natural and Supernatural ReligionsMatt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-10878919724437868262010-10-17T17:10:21.948-07:002010-10-17T17:10:21.948-07:00The same analysis is actually quite useful when di...The same analysis is actually quite useful when discussing cosmic and biological evolution. When one assumes God's omnipotence, one has to wonder why God did not simply create the entire Universe, life and everything after all at once. And if God DID create the entire Universe all at once, why did He obscure His presence by making it appear that the Universe evolved, that life evolved, that geological and chemical and physical forces are responsible for the phenomena we encounter on a daily basis.<br /><br />It is a rather convoluted process for an omnipotent being to engage in and serves no real purpose other than to confuse and obfuscate those who are supposed to believe in Him.Jeffrey A. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03932419322314950738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-62285635773658133782010-10-14T10:37:45.359-07:002010-10-14T10:37:45.359-07:00Fair enough, Mike. In the end I can never prevent...Fair enough, Mike. In the end I can never prevent anyone from being flagrantly irrational. I can show them, over and over, how the views they claim to have are utterly contradictory and unintelligible. If that doesn't bother them, they've just left the domain of grown up discussion. But, contrary to your claim that they will be unfazed by my post, I explained in the last comment and in the post why retreating to the demonic religions position doesn't help the problem at all. Same for people who try to "solve" the problem of evil by blaming it on the devil. That doesn't explain why God tolerates its existence in the world, it just adds another level of questions. Thanks again. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-56077997133312234222010-10-14T09:37:58.412-07:002010-10-14T09:37:58.412-07:00Well, you're right that they don't have an...Well, you're right that they don't have any believable evidence for, say, demons that we're obliged to accept. And if they're trying to push their religion on us, all we have to say in rebuttal is, "Prove it!"<br /><br />On the other hand, because they do believe in demons, the kind of argument you've made in this post won't faze them. It depends on who's attacking and who's defending, on who's trying to convince whom.mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-86659129946441996232010-10-14T09:15:50.709-07:002010-10-14T09:15:50.709-07:00Hmmm, well Soku and Mike Speir bring up a possibil...Hmmm, well Soku and Mike Speir bring up a possibility that I hadn't thought of: A Christian might think (unreasonably) that all of the thousands of other religions are actually supernatural, but they fit within the Christian metaphysics by being of evil, demonic, or satanic origin. So maybe they are all put here to obscure, distract, and undermine our faith. <br /><br />This doesn't really change the argument. It just pushes the paradox back a level. First, why would an all powerful and all knowing, good God tolerate his one true religion's being so interfered with? He's got the power, the knowledge, and the goodness to prevent Satan or demons from wrecking his plan, right? Second, why would God set up or create his one true religion so that it looks just like all of the evil, demonic, and satanic ones? Third, Satan? Seriously? Demons? Seriously? Stop acting like a child and get your head out of your ass. There are no such things. We don't have a single reliable, confirmable sound piece of evidence that suggests that anything like this is real. Atheists, skeptics, and non believers need to stop wasting their time taking nonsense like this seriously. Clearly, if someone thinks that the world is full of mysterious, invisible, evil demonic agents, the burden of proof is on them to show us. Until then, I don't see that I should even dignify these ideas with a response. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-91584614136329055752010-10-14T03:24:36.023-07:002010-10-14T03:24:36.023-07:00The kind of Christianity I grew up with would insi...The kind of Christianity I grew up with would insist that "false" religions have a Satanic/demonic origin. Or is this the same issue soku brought up?mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-61664071980285526372010-10-13T21:24:07.299-07:002010-10-13T21:24:07.299-07:00Nice points Funkenstein. I think there is a conse...Nice points Funkenstein. I think there is a consensus, even among reformed epistemology advocates, that there are several problems in Plantinga's arguments. Yours sound like plausible ones. Although P is tenacious and hasn't relented, despite some hard objections. The big problem that many agree on now is that Plantinga's convenient way of insulating his own view from attack is available to anyone else to do the same. A Great Pumpkin believer can insist that the Great Pumpkin insures that his cognitive faculties are functioning properly and producing special metaphysical knowledge of his ultimate pumpkin-ness. And this believer can employ all the same tropes to isolate Great Pumpkinism from objections. A great deal has been written on this. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-84887971756080296862010-10-12T11:41:17.841-07:002010-10-12T11:41:17.841-07:00Isn't what Robert's post refers to basical...Isn't what Robert's post refers to basically what Plantinga's extended A/C model operates around (the regenerating power of the HS overcoming the noetic effects of sin on the truth-tracking cognitive faculties designed by God to generate true beliefs in the right environment for them etc etc)?<br /><br />Obviously Plantinga's point is that <i>if</i> God exists then this model/something like it should be true.<br /><br />Two things I've wondered about it that would presumably show it doesn't exist would be that while people and groups begin to believe in various dissimilar god(s) in an independent manner, they don;t do the same for the specific ones in specific religions. Belief in Jesus/Yahweh hasn't and doesn't pop(ped) up at random, which should be expected were this model true - i.e. there weren't people in Mexico or Australia starting to believe in Jesus independently of and prior to missionaries arriving on their shores etc. <br /><br />Secondly, if this regenerating spirit is saving true believers from having or generating false beliefs (or at least reducing them - and I'm assuming this includes beliefs that have nothing to do with God, just true/false beliefs in general) that believers would be expected to consistently outperform non-Christians (and in particular atheists) in academic testing, tasks involving reasoning/other uses of cognitive faculties etc. The fact that this doesn't seem to be the case would suggest the HS (or at least Plantinga's extended model) doesn't exist in reality.<br /><br />To me these objections seem rather obvious (and would seem to rather easily disprove that Plantinga's model actually exists), but it presumably can't be as simple as that to show he's wrong can it?Rocky Rodenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620894198842461714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-11852089277141703232010-10-11T19:15:47.083-07:002010-10-11T19:15:47.083-07:00I suppose my reference to Dawkins was less of a su...I suppose my reference to Dawkins was less of a summary and more of a derivative. None the less, I like you analysis.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667781730744483965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-66065959753610846752010-10-11T18:43:43.037-07:002010-10-11T18:43:43.037-07:00Sean, that's not a very good summary, although...Sean, that's not a very good summary, although I can see why you might think so. A better summary: Why did the Christian God make the origination of his religion look just like all of the other misguided and mistaken religions in the world? He didn't--Christianity is false too.Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-79343637406233672342010-10-11T18:41:58.697-07:002010-10-11T18:41:58.697-07:00Soku, this argument is directed specifically at th...Soku, this argument is directed specifically at those Christians who would not accept that the majority of other religions have real supernatural origins. I have had many other previous posts dealing with the sort of broader theism you're talking about.Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-81526892660820322742010-10-11T18:11:25.179-07:002010-10-11T18:11:25.179-07:00Summary: Just like Christians, atheist dismiss eve...Summary: Just like Christians, atheist dismiss every other god man has ever known. For the same reason, we go one god further.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667781730744483965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7302376316406420272010-10-11T16:21:05.254-07:002010-10-11T16:21:05.254-07:00So, what would you say about a Christian who doesn...So, what would you say about a Christian who doesn't accept that all or most of the other religions have natural sources, professor?sokuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795804426336852550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-51276413793178987162010-10-11T16:19:47.936-07:002010-10-11T16:19:47.936-07:00What would you say about Christians who don't ...What would you say about Christians who don't accept that all or most other religions have natural sources, professor?sokuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795804426336852550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-51726000469081423202010-10-11T15:26:07.368-07:002010-10-11T15:26:07.368-07:00I set it up on my site but I can't remember wh...I set it up on my site but I can't remember which site I used. It's very slick and the sharing button has been automatically to all my old posts.The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-25138162911170256962010-10-11T15:05:02.077-07:002010-10-11T15:05:02.077-07:00I changed the setting, AM, but the buttons don'...I changed the setting, AM, but the buttons don't seem to be showing up. Good idea. I'll work on it. <br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-77877330392224013852010-10-11T14:44:53.694-07:002010-10-11T14:44:53.694-07:00Professor, could you please consider adding a shar...Professor, could you please consider adding a sharing button on the bottom of your posts. This can be set up automatically - there are a variety of services available including www.addthis.com. Thank-you for maintaining this inforative site.The Atheist Missionaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07191035196328725888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-6189480278477945752010-10-11T14:30:26.771-07:002010-10-11T14:30:26.771-07:00Yup, that doesn't improve their position at al...Yup, that doesn't improve their position at all, for the reasons you cite and more. Furthermore, this response creates a new paradox--on this view God utterly obscured his existence by disguising the one real supernatural religion as a natural one, then he bestows special private encounters to an inexplicable few people in the midst of billions of other people who have their own false mystical experiences. One paradox gets replaced with another. Either God's a hopeless bumbler, or (easier) we just made it all up. Thanks Robert. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-27235878080676428972010-10-11T14:12:26.388-07:002010-10-11T14:12:26.388-07:00Christians would likely respond they have supernat...Christians would likely respond they have supernatural confirmation for their beliefs - the Holy Spirit. I argue this <a href="http://www.makingmyway.org/?p=554" rel="nofollow">doesn't improve</a> their position.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13979134095124767324noreply@blogger.com