tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post4620360600065567459..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: Monkey MoralityMatt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-40032777846635754412010-04-07T19:42:46.909-07:002010-04-07T19:42:46.909-07:00Blas,
"And the minority not programmed to do...Blas,<br /><br />"And the minority not programmed to do so are wrong or bad programmed?"<br /><br />I don't use the words "wrong or bad programmed."<br /><br />But, I am happy that they are in the minority. <br /><br />Would you like to argue that it would be better if they were the majority?M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-67488656168647397012010-03-25T04:47:35.296-07:002010-03-25T04:47:35.296-07:00"The majority of us are programmed to want to..."The majority of us are programmed to want to minimize conscious suffering, and thank goodness, most of us do"<br /><br />And the minority not programmed to do so are wrong or bad programmed?<br />Minimize conscious suffering from the point of view of who? The child molester, the child, the consenting mumm, the drunk man, the owner of the potato salad or the neighborhouds of both?Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-3656103671248502652010-03-25T04:30:50.990-07:002010-03-25T04:30:50.990-07:00Yes I can. Based on whether or not it improves the...Yes I can. Based on whether or not it improves the human condition. Is that purely subjective? <br /><br />Yes is purely subjective, and natural law do not works for "human condition" because that is an abstraction of our mind. Natural law works for more reproductivity capacity and that is an individual property. Also natural law looks for variability, evolved behaviours should be outliners, so you cannot evaluate that behaviours wrong or bad without going outside the "natural law".Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-9939296224838084432010-03-24T20:43:57.278-07:002010-03-24T20:43:57.278-07:00Fair enough, Tully. You're right. C S has be...Fair enough, Tully. You're right. C S has been disrespectful and rude in some instances. I guess I just don't expect more from him and the Christian trolls who get on here and try to pick these fights. In fact, for a lot of C S's comments, there just hasn't been enough substance in there to warrant responding to. I think you're wasting your breath. He's not interested in actually talking about this with the truth or being reasonable in mind. I've seen you offer some really insightful and sharp arguments, on the other hand, and I was hoping for more than the angry name calling. I sensed it spiraling into oblivion, so I commented. But note that your input has always been welcome and appreciated.Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-55519173567283522122010-03-24T19:45:20.583-07:002010-03-24T19:45:20.583-07:00I was going to not comment, but then I had to.
&q...I was going to not comment, but then I had to.<br /><br />"you're resorting to insults and personal attacks. Give an argument please."<br /><br />Why didn't CS get that comment when he called atheists "stupid?"<br /><br />I am curious. Is there a prejudice against ourselves? Or is it we have higher expectations about ourselves? Is that a positive or a negative?<br /><br />I really am curious, I don't have an opinion yet. But what is it? Is there a strong but unsaid, "belief in belief" in us?<br /><br />I don't know. But what an interesting question.M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-63908555332988839122010-03-24T19:05:25.545-07:002010-03-24T19:05:25.545-07:00Blas,
"can you say that the outliners behavi...Blas,<br /><br />"can you say that the outliners behaviors are wrong or bad?"<br /><br />Yes I can. Based on whether or not it improves the human condition. Is that purely subjective? Somewhat, but don't we all treat humans different from insects? Would the vast majority of people kill a fly who landed on their potato salad? Would the vast majority not kill a drunk human who staggard onto their potato salad? The majority of us are programmed to want to minimize conscious suffering, and thank goodness, most of us do. How about a chimp or your pet dog? <br /><br />Can I tell you with metaphysical certitude that we should? No! Care to argue why we shouldn't?M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-84928574748787430852010-03-24T18:54:16.348-07:002010-03-24T18:54:16.348-07:00Matt,
Point well taken. I can jump ahead of myse...Matt,<br /><br />Point well taken. I can jump ahead of myself sometimes.<br /><br />CS,<br /><br />You wrote,<br /><br />"Ok I’ll try to be blunt. Atheist according to my study (on religion and suicide) are stupid."<br /><br />CS, can you provide any evidence that suicide rates and intelligence are related in any way?<br /><br />That is to say, can you provide evidence that if, and that is a conditional if, atheists have a higher rate of suicide than theists, that that also implies that atheists have a lower ability to discern truth? That is to say have a lower intelligence? Additionally, can you demonstrate that a higher suicide rate would falsify an empirically held position? Have you considered the possibility that having a better understanding of reality is related to higher suicide rates (that is only a hypothetical)?<br /><br />I don't believe that you can. That makes me believe that you are creating a red herring argument. And just between us, red herring arguments tend make me feel tired.<br /><br />Is that better?M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-64955864784069442332010-03-23T06:57:12.804-07:002010-03-23T06:57:12.804-07:00Good point M., now If human behavior is predicted ...Good point M., now If human behavior is predicted by genetics and environment, can you say that the outliners behaviors are wrong or bad? Can we evaluate the morality of the guy is molesting the child, if the women helps or agree with this guy because his genetics and enviroment are outside of the average is a bad behaviour.Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-6963535115113894042010-03-22T19:33:27.276-07:002010-03-22T19:33:27.276-07:00Tully, I'm trying to follow your arguments, bu...Tully, I'm trying to follow your arguments, but a lot of these points are fractured and instead of elaborating, you're resorting to insults and personal attacks. Give an argument please.Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-86217642573465396112010-03-22T19:19:59.745-07:002010-03-22T19:19:59.745-07:00CS,
Alan Turing comitted suicide. He did so beca...CS,<br /><br />Alan Turing comitted suicide. He did so because of religious intolerance. Please see, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing.<br /><br />If you want to claim to be brighter than old Alan, please provide evidence. If not tell me why the vast majority of people less intellegent than Turing haven't already comitted suicide?<br /><br />Your argument fails miserably under the rules of evidence. You really are becoming boring.M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-54137058462034704262010-03-22T18:45:31.206-07:002010-03-22T18:45:31.206-07:00Blas,
You ask an excellent question.
"If it...Blas,<br /><br />You ask an excellent question.<br /><br />"If it is a natural law it is inevitable the outcame. <br />Do you know any natural law with optative outcome?"<br /><br />No, naturalism has never claimed to be able to give perfect predictability to anything. What it claims is; (and if you can honestly refute the following, you should publish somewhere) "There is a statistically predictable pattern in most human behavior and we have the model that is most likely to be correct in most circumstances."<br /><br />That's right, naturalists don't claim infallibility (counter to most religions). What we do claim is "best model." <br /><br />Don't believe me? If human behavior is predicted by genetics and environment, I can predict that if you act aggressively towards a child in the presence of that child's mother, in the vast majority of times the mother will act aggressively in kind.<br /><br />If it is truly a free will (a ghost in a machine able to act independently) I shouldn't be able to make that prediction.<br /><br />OR ANY OTHER. If contra-causal free will is true, actions totally independent of existing conditions and input, I shouldn't be able to make any predictions about any human behavior.<br /><br />I am certainly glad that I don't live in a universe that allowed for contra causal free-will!<br /><br />No, naturalism doesn't make infallible predictions, but compared to the alternatives, it is magnitudes more accurate.M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-83922951105426341102010-03-22T18:22:18.882-07:002010-03-22T18:22:18.882-07:00OK CS,
One time, real slow for you...
"So do...OK CS,<br /><br />One time, real slow for you...<br />"So does this study impact the previous claim that atheist have higher IQ's?"<br /><br />NO!<br /><br />One's ability to understand concepts and apply them in ways previously unseen has absolutely no connection to whether or not someone will or will not commit suicide. But who cares! If your argument is that the suicide rate of any group of people is evidence for the existence of any supernatural being, then please connect those empirical dots for me.<br /><br />Now here is some evidence that you can verify: Many suicides that leave evidence for their reasons (actually most don't but of those that do), a frequent hit is that they no longer want to be a burden to their family. Promoting genes through self sacrifice would be predicted by an ESS. Pick up a book about honey bees and stinging sometime. <br /><br />Your argument appears empirically to make a natural vice supernatural point.M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-30487488550285420062010-03-22T11:24:37.095-07:002010-03-22T11:24:37.095-07:00"the view that freedom amounts to causation o..."the view that freedom amounts to causation outside of natural laws is held by almost no one.<br /><br />How a natural law can act freely between two choices?<br />If it is a natural law it is inevitable the outcame. <br />Do you know any natural law with optative outcome?Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-40887475032887778132010-03-22T09:00:04.636-07:002010-03-22T09:00:04.636-07:00Hi Matt, liked the blog. My comment is regarding m...Hi Matt, liked the blog. My comment is regarding myth 1 and myth 6 under the title "Top Ten Myths about Belief in God". Are you implying that the 1 billion Hindus doesn't believe in God? Because they believe in more than a single god. While the Chinese and Japanese examples hold true, I think you should remove the Indian example there. By including the Indian example, you are actually contradicting your myths 1 and 6.Amar Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00846130429958556969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-15976865548202472272010-03-19T21:25:57.531-07:002010-03-19T21:25:57.531-07:00More evidence about inborn moral inclinations:
Bo...More evidence about inborn moral inclinations:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss" rel="nofollow">Born With the Urge to Help</a>Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-55045154867775836952010-03-19T10:48:45.903-07:002010-03-19T10:48:45.903-07:00Question: what reasons do any of you have for thi...Question: what reasons do any of you have for thinking that when you make what you think are free choices that they are outside of or in violation of natural laws? My understanding is that among the people who work on freewill, the view that freedom amounts to causation outside of natural laws is held by almost no one. <br /><br />H JUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13183984526520549230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-50183191552845527962010-03-18T23:21:09.156-07:002010-03-18T23:21:09.156-07:00"Natural laws are not optative, if everithing..."Natural laws are not optative, if everithing is product of the natural law, as materialist support, there is no possibility to chose. What are you saying is that natural law can go against natural law, then that is not a law.<br />I suggest you read Kant´s moral."<br /><br />Yeah, there is a reason I put "free" in quotemarks.svenjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09843201972958214387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-73420167187786939062010-03-18T21:13:35.931-07:002010-03-18T21:13:35.931-07:00Matt,
Ok I’ll try to be blunt. Atheist according ...Matt,<br /><br />Ok I’ll try to be blunt. Atheist according to my study (on religion and suicide) are stupid. They kill themselves more often than theist and so the study you posted early claiming is strong evidence is in fact complete crap. You cannot be reasonable to think otherwise. In fact I am shocked you thought the religiosity and education attainment study was even remotely academic worthy. Its just more fundy non believer BS like to feed to the flock like dancing around during Christmas in satanic costumes or whatever your brethren do.<br /><br />CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-18602073425464046232010-03-18T20:47:18.938-07:002010-03-18T20:47:18.938-07:00I haven't got the faintest idea what you are t...I haven't got the faintest idea what you are talking about CS. Do you have an argument to make, evidence, or anything constructive to say?Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-65485792111988260512010-03-18T20:37:06.021-07:002010-03-18T20:37:06.021-07:00Matt,
Good observation about me hinting at the im...Matt,<br /><br />Good observation about me hinting at the implication that lower IQ’s are associated with suicide. But you don’t think this has any bearing on the religiosity and education attainment negative correlation study? I cant see how there wouldn’t be any affect on you weighing the evidence for or against. But again when we hear evidence that runs counter to a belief based on a correlation we ought to say that such and such correlation is weak and not strong.<br /><br /><br />CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7323908760151356572010-03-18T09:23:25.519-07:002010-03-18T09:23:25.519-07:00I suppose, CS, that you are suggesting that commit...I suppose, CS, that you are suggesting that committing suicide is something that you'd expect people with lower IQs to do at a higher rate. I don't hear an argument for that claim, so, no, I don't see any impact on the well established negative correlation between intelligence and religiousness.Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-46399479187129495392010-03-18T09:21:18.907-07:002010-03-18T09:21:18.907-07:00Some of the problems with Plantinga's argument...Some of the problems with Plantinga's argument against naturalism (again): <a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.136.4328&rep=rep1&type=pdf" rel="nofollow">Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism.</a>Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-29032833600356842972010-03-18T04:14:17.704-07:002010-03-18T04:14:17.704-07:00"So genes create our minds, which have inclin..."So genes create our minds, which have inclinations toward successful behaviors, but we are "free" to go against our nature within a certain range"<br /><br />Natural laws are not optative, if everithing is product of the natural law, as materialist support, there is no possibility to chose. What are you saying is that natural law can go against natural law, then that is not a law.<br />I suggest you read Kant´s moral.Blashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205610477389739651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-23669709138949369752010-03-18T03:54:18.879-07:002010-03-18T03:54:18.879-07:00Matt and atheist alike,
Well the response that Al...Matt and atheist alike,<br /><br />Well the response that Alvin Plantinga sucks or billy bob philosopher thinks he's wrong wasn't too enlightening but moving on...<br /><br />Maybe this study has some impact on the atheism/morality issue.<br /><br />A study done showed that atheist are more prone to suicide.<br /><br />Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt <br />http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303<br /><br />So does this study impact the previous claim that atheist have higher IQ's?<br /><br />CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-2911185917999409882010-03-17T19:20:16.341-07:002010-03-17T19:20:16.341-07:00Smaitzen,
Again, good insight. "despite th...Smaitzen,<br /> <br />Again, good insight. "despite the public's disapproval and its desire to punish"<br /><br />The "desire" word there being very key. Evolution doesn't select perfect biological systems, it selects those that are good enough.<br /><br />Adaptability within a culture has been shown to be an evolutionary stable strategy. You have a population with varying degrees of cheat disposition and rules disposition. Depending on the culture they find themselves, one population can increase and the other decrease or vice-verse without either of them becoming extinct. This provides a powerful explanation as to why we could desire punishment for an action and yet refrain from invoking it.<br /><br />So, why be moral? It is currently the successful strategy for the vast majority. But there is no good reason to suppose that in some distant time in the future, the common argument couldn't be, "Why be immoral?"<br /><br />Being someone programmed morally, all I can say is, thank goodness I live in the time that I do.<br /><br />And yes, current philosophy is most likely to make our current morality make sense to us. However, since morality affects behavior and behavior affects what we observe, science has a very strong dog in the morality fight. A dog that could only be dismissed by dismissing the relationship of human desire to human action.M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.com