tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post2877669144797267925..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: Santa and the Believer’s Real Idea of GodMatt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-20538936767428329142009-01-08T07:45:00.000-08:002009-01-08T07:45:00.000-08:00Joe the Plumber becomes war reporterWurzelbacher s...<A HREF="http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24887231-23109,00.html" REL="nofollow">Joe the Plumber becomes war reporter</A><BR/><I>Wurzelbacher said he was not concerned about heading into a warzone for a 10 days.<BR/><BR/>"Being a Christian I'm pretty well protected by God I believe. That's not saying he's going to stop a mortar for me, but you gotta take the chance,” he told WNWO.</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-40422218864100256352008-12-20T17:02:00.000-08:002008-12-20T17:02:00.000-08:00Proof, or evidence? Look around. There is plenty o...<I>Proof, or evidence? Look around. There is plenty of evidence for a creator. If you saw a watch laying in the forest, you would ask, I wonder how that evolved...but rather where'd that come from...who made it?</I><BR/><BR/>Of course you would. That is because we know that watches are made by people; either factory workers or master craftsmen. We could even go visit the factories in which they are made. We also know that watches do not reproduce biologically. If we put two watches in a shoe box with some food (metal and oil?) and left them alone for a week or two, we know that they would not reproduce by themselves.<BR/><BR/><I>Or like M Tully, they play like they don't understand Steve's question about the watch and dismiss it in such away that makes one look childish.</I><BR/><BR/>M. Tully's response shows that he did indeed understand steve martin's question, and the response included a cogent objection. It is after all the <I>argument from design</I>, which has been around thousands of years, and identical to the most famous expression of it by William Paley early in the 19th century (except the substitution of a forest for a heath). There were serious objections to the <I>argument from design</I> even before Darwin's theory of evolution by means of natural selection completely eviscerated it. That someone would pose such an argument as if it hadn't been considered and rejected before is indeed childish.<BR/><BR/><I>And when a critical thinker like Anthony Flew is persuaded by intelligent design arguments to change his position, I think the time for laughing has stopped.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree, <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&pagewanted=all" REL="nofollow">age-related deterioration</A> is not a laughing matter. And his name is <I>Antony</I>. At least have enough respect to get his name right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-74231425540924356282008-12-20T16:44:00.000-08:002008-12-20T16:44:00.000-08:00Just the other day, I received an "emergency appea...Just the other day, I received an "emergency appeal" in the mail from Catholic Relief Services. This request for contributions included a Prayer Request Card which underlines the extent to which a large number of believers view their deities as a Santa-like figure, and not an aloof, abstract "liberal" un-disproveable deity. Here is the list of items for which I could request prayers:<BR/><BR/>victims of natural disasters (<I>and why didn't they label these as 'acts of God"?</I>)<BR/>world peace<BR/>homeless refugees<BR/>hungry and sick children<BR/>unborn children<BR/>healing of an illness<BR/>departed loved ones<BR/>marriage<BR/>reconciliation<BR/>financial problem<BR/>employment<BR/>spiritual growth<BR/>peaceful death<BR/>Pope Benedict XVI<BR/>other:_________Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-77858265557634939442008-12-19T15:06:00.000-08:002008-12-19T15:06:00.000-08:00Bror Erickson wrote:"Do you? Do you take those dou...Bror Erickson wrote:<BR/>"Do you? Do you take those doubts seriously, when you have doubts?"<BR/><BR/>I can only answer for myself. Yes.<BR/><BR/>But what does that mean? From an epistemic standpoint, it means taking seriously the possibility that I might be mistaken, and being open to the consideration of new arguments and new evidence.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, however, I have to say that the more I see the failure of arguments and purported evidence for theism, the less likely I am to give new arguments and new evidential claims seriously. <BR/><BR/>You also wrote: "people who have never read the Bible try to come up with any conceivable argument against it, posing so-called "problems" and "contradictions" that with a little inspection turn out to no problems at all."<BR/><BR/>But what about people who HAVE read the Bible who find such problems? Take, just as one instance, John Loftus over at http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/ -- surely you can't tell me he has never read the Bible? Loftus abandoned Christianity mainly BECAUSE he read it and tried to reconcile the problems he found there.<BR/><BR/>You also wrote: "As for Christians praying for you, don't take it as insulting. I think you may read a little into that."<BR/><BR/>I am not insulted by Christians praying for me. What I find insulting is when someone can't give even a semblance of a reasonable response to an argument and then gives up trying, but leaves off with "I'll pray for you". They might as well say, "I can't tell you why you're wrong, but I'm so closed-minded that I am not willing to take your arguments seriously. So I'm going to pity you for being wrong. Poor thing."<BR/><BR/>Just as an analogy, how annoyed would you be if an atheist couldn't give you a resonable answer to one of your objections and instead simply said, "I'll think for you."Eric Sotnakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06162425851889399481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-54510729698607175952008-12-19T12:17:00.000-08:002008-12-19T12:17:00.000-08:00It's difficult to believe the Gospel when: Mt 5:18...It's difficult to believe the Gospel when: <BR/><BR/>Mt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.w 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.<BR/><BR/>So, the specific slavery quotes in both the Old Testament and the New Testament must by necessity count "to the letter". <BR/><BR/>Maybe it could be argued in there that "everything is accomplished" via any form of conjecture, however, that would be merely getting away from the literalism, now wouldn't it? Trippy. <BR/><BR/>Just a bit of texical exegesis.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-14836299396442785252008-12-19T08:45:00.000-08:002008-12-19T08:45:00.000-08:00Eric,you write: "Now, consider those of us who are...Eric,<BR/>you write: "Now, consider those of us who are skeptics, agnostics, atheists. We, too, have our doubts. But instead of brushing off those doubts by appealing to faith, we have taken the step of taking those doubts seriously. Many believers find that terrible, and I think that is at best curious. Their line of thinking goes like this: "It's ok to have doubts, so long as you don't give in to them. No matter how severe one's crisis of faith, faith must be preserved."<BR/>Do you? Do you take those doubts seriously, when you have doubts? <BR/>You see from my perspective what you say of "believers" I say of many agnostics, atheists, and skeptics, unbelief must be maintained at all costs. <BR/>Then people who have never read the Bible try to come up with any conceivable argument against it, posing so-called "problems" and "contradictions" that with a little inspection turn out to no problems at all. <BR/>Or like M Tully, they play like they don't understand Steve's question about the watch and dismiss it in such away that makes one look childish. <BR/>Do you agnostics, atheists, and skeptics ever actually investigate the counter arguments? do you entertain the thought that maybe not everything there is in this world is to be investigated with a microscope? That perhaps there are answers to questions that lie outside of physics and biology? I came across this sight because Matt here said every philosopher he knew laughed at a certain argument for a creator. The argument was rehashed Aristotle. Has the maintenance of unbelief come to the point that Philosophers are now laughing at Aristotle?! Disagree with him you may, but laugh? <BR/>There are atheists out there that I respect. I feel indebted to Kai Nielson, and Thomas Nagel. I have nothing but respect for men like Karl Popper, and Anthony Flew. And when a critical thinker like Anthony Flew is persuaded by intelligent design arguments to change his position, I think the time for laughing has stopped. <BR/>As for Christians praying for you, don't take it as insulting. I think you may read a little into that. Forgive them for not being able to come up with an argument superior to yours and not abandoning the faith they cherish. Perhaps they ponder it such "well I don't know now, but perhaps there is a superior argument I am not able to come up with at the moment." Has that not happened to you? Met an argument you smelled something wrong with but couldn't put your hand on what was wrong? Been persuaded for a while by an argument, only to have seen it torn to shreds later on?Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-19251153120315163932008-12-19T08:33:00.000-08:002008-12-19T08:33:00.000-08:00Steve Martin wrote: "God has to use faith, otherwi...Steve Martin wrote: "God has to use faith, otherwise we would not love Him [Her], but rather we would just fear Him [Her].<BR/><BR/>If [S]He showed up here, or wrote in the sky so that the whole worls could see it...no faith would be required and we'd all believe...but we'd be scared to death of Him [Her]."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Why would we fear God if She made herself known? Especially if the God that you speak of is "all-loving", unless in fact She is not? <BR/><BR/>Please explain.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to bite my own tail and provide a rather premature argument. But in the name of the Laughter, the Fun, and the Holy Roast... Here it is:<BR/><BR/>I don't see how this is justification for the reason God's believers are imprisoned with their "almighty" faith, which undermines the most unique quality about being human; our ability to reason. Do you think that God wants us to be better humans? If so, then wouldn't She want us to believe in things through reason and not faith? Faith stumps reason. If God exists and created humans who are unique only through our ability to reason, why would She want to limit what makes us human? Please explain.<BR/><BR/>So, either She does not want us to know that she exists or She does not exist. <BR/><BR/>if She does not want us to know that she exists, then why should <BR/>anyone be so inclined to believe in Her? Why go against Her wishes? <BR/><BR/>I guess it's hard to go against passed down traditions, beliefs, and a self-reproducing, self-sustaining religion whose lineage can be traced to none other than the powerful and persuasive minds of other humans.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>-Moral OrelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-19604163994359491432008-12-18T23:08:00.000-08:002008-12-18T23:08:00.000-08:00So Steve,You wrote, "Proof, or evidence? Look arou...So Steve,<BR/><BR/>You wrote, "Proof, or evidence? Look around. There is plenty of evidence for a creator. If you saw a watch laying in the forest, you would ask, I wonder how that evolved...but rather where'd that come from...who made it? Or a painting (same thing)."<BR/><BR/>...So between the watch and the trees in the forest, is your claim that the watch is supernatural but the trees are natural? Or is it the paintingare supernatural? What is it exactly that I am supposed to take from that?M. Tullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06056410184615941086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-33484714923514969612008-12-18T14:19:00.000-08:002008-12-18T14:19:00.000-08:00steve martin wrote:"You know Eric, I still have do...steve martin wrote:<BR/>"You know Eric, I still have doubts. There are times when I wonder, 'God..where are you...why are you letting this happen?', but that is the nature of faith."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for acknowledging the existence of your doubts. Too often, I think, believers hide under a cloak of absolutely unshakeable certainty. But I think the vast majority of believers have more than a few moments of doubt.<BR/><BR/>Now, consider those of us who are skeptics, agnostics, atheists. We, too, have our doubts. But instead of brushing off those doubts by appealing to faith, we have taken the step of taking those doubts seriously. Many believers find that terrible, and I think that is at best curious. Their line of thinking goes like this: "It's ok to have doubts, so long as you don't give in to them. No matter how severe one's crisis of faith, faith must be preserved."<BR/><BR/>But I don't think religious belief is deserving of this special immunity. To be sure, there are some theists who think they don't need it -- they believe theism can be reasonably established on the basis of evidence or argument. But my experience is that such theists are either rare or disingenuous. <BR/><BR/>This is why I think so many atheists get irritated when the best response theists can muster is "I'll pray for you" It smacks of condescension, doesn't it? It amounts to "I can't tell you where your arguments go wrong, and I can't mount any superior arguments for my position, but I am unwilling to credit your position with any reasonableness, so instead I will pity you and change the subject."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for staying polite.Eric Sotnakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06162425851889399481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-24660119012271289632008-12-18T08:13:00.000-08:002008-12-18T08:13:00.000-08:00Eric, Great questions! If I could answer tham all...Eric,<BR/><BR/> Great questions! If I could answer tham all then I would be God.<BR/><BR/>I believe that God is actively involved in the creation and sustains His creation...actively.<BR/><BR/>Proof, or evidence? Look around. There is plenty of evidence for a creator. If you saw a watch laying in the forest, you would ask, I wonder how that evolved...but rather where'd that come from...who made it? Or a painting (same thing).<BR/><BR/> I cannot convince anyone that God is real. He has to make Himself known to you.<BR/><BR/> When and how He does this, is His business. <BR/><BR/> The bible tells us that He has chosen to do it through His Word of promise. That He loves you, that He did for you. That He forgives all your shortcomings and sins. These things are not grasped by us but through faith and God gives us that faith...when and where He wills to do it.<BR/>One place that He has decided to do it is in baptism. In baptism He forgives sin and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/> I was baptised as an infant and faith came alive in (so that I could notice) me when I was 40.<BR/><BR/> Oftentimes it is tradgedy or hopelessness that God uses to kill us off to ourselves, that we might realize that He is there, that He is real, that He loves us and that one day we will live with Him.<BR/><BR/> You know Eric, I still have doubts. There are times when I wonder, 'God..where are you...why are you letting this happen?', but that is the nature of faith. <BR/><BR/> God has to use faith, otherwise we would not love Him, but rather we would just fear Him.<BR/><BR/> If He showed up here, or wrote in the sky so that the whole worls could see it...no faith would be required and we'd all believe...but we'd be scared to death of Him.<BR/><BR/> I think that is why God reveals Himself in the way He does to people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-1225412404105350202008-12-18T06:41:00.000-08:002008-12-18T06:41:00.000-08:00steve martin wrote:"He made you, and He made me......steve martin wrote:<BR/>"He made you, and He made me...that's good for starters."<BR/><BR/>So let's start with that. You say God made you. But at the same time, surely you acknowledge that you came abourt through the union of a sperm and an egg. So when you say God had a role in this so that it was not a purely naturalistic process, where was his role? At the very beginning, only, and everything thereafter was natural processes? or did God intervene so as to favor one particular sperm so that YOU existed, rather than any one of millions of other possible individuals who might have been conceived instead?<BR/><BR/>Or do you hold the belief that humans are body-soul composites, so that in addition to the natural process of conception, there is a supernatural event where God adds a soul to the human organism?<BR/><BR/>Is there compelling evidence for the existence of such a soul? What are its properties (and what evidence do you have for the belief that the soul has those properties)? When does God add it to the developing human organism?Eric Sotnakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06162425851889399481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-25701116706985406282008-12-17T23:14:00.000-08:002008-12-17T23:14:00.000-08:00Well...I really don't know what you'd like me to s...Well...I really don't know what you'd like me to say about the God that you don't believe in.<BR/><BR/>His name is really Larry, and He lives at 132 N. Elm in Cleveland...?<BR/><BR/>He made you, and He made me...that's good for starters.<BR/><BR/>That you don't believe it is not my problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-42760691419736369852008-12-17T22:58:00.000-08:002008-12-17T22:58:00.000-08:00And I don't see any jargon Steve used that wasn't ...<I>And I don't see any jargon Steve used that wasn't in your post. Do you often use words you don't understand?</I><BR/><BR/>Full response forthcoming, but for now I just want to clarify this bit. MM was specifically dealing with phrases like "He is who he is", "God manifests himself in the hearts and minds of humans, not in arguments or reasons.", "God is Love", etc.<BR/><BR/>These phrases get uttered a lot but simply lack any kind of substance. And specifically he was making the point that these kinds of phrases uttered by the atheist would be unacceptable, if not unintelligible.<BR/><BR/>He was not attacking the use of any specific word outside of context, so I'm not sure what your response was getting at. Did you read MM's full comment?Caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16673262998160500190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-9369995891085344292008-12-17T13:14:00.000-08:002008-12-17T13:14:00.000-08:00Matt,I get a kick out of how you present these so ...Matt,<BR/>I get a kick out of how you present these so called problems. <BR/>And the answers are fairly simple. God, who is transcendent etc, the creator of space and time, wishes to communicate to fallen man. To do so he lowers himself to our standards of understanding. It isn't so hard now is it? And if he wants to hear me at 10:32 tonight, he will hear me at 10:32 tonight, just as he knew me before I was born. It isn't an either/or with God, it is both and. <BR/>And I don't see any jargon Steve used that wasn't in your post. Do you often use words you don't understand?Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-21505115238662520142008-12-17T10:36:00.000-08:002008-12-17T10:36:00.000-08:00I see a pattern in your comments, Steve. Here's a...I see a pattern in your comments, Steve. Here's a challenge for you: can you give a description of God and some of these metaphysical claims about him that does not employ any of the jargon, or insider cliches, or boiler-plated poetic theology? That is, can you say any of this stuff without presuming so much background and acceptance in your audience that it's true or even makes sense? I think that would be useful for you and the people who are trying to understand you because otherwise, you just sound like a cult member whose consciousness has been completely co-opted. Then, if you can make these claims without all the theo-babble, can you offer some non-circular, non-question begging grounds for the rest of us to think the claims are true? That is, do you have any grounds for believing the doctrine besides appealing to the doctrine itself? It's not a unreasonable request--your audience wants to know why you believe, not just hear empty platitudes. And you should satisfy yourself that there are some reasons to accept this stuff and dedicate your life to it that are independent of the doctrine itself. <BR/><BR/>Think of it this way: imagine a non-believer, in response to legitimate questions from you, just kept saying things like:<BR/><BR/>"The vast nothingness IS WHAT IT IS, and nothing else." <BR/><BR/>"The non-existence of God has revealed itself in the righteous, perfect, impersonal absence of God." <BR/><BR/>"The nothing manifests itself in the hearts and minds of humans, not in arguments or reasons." <BR/><BR/>"The Non-God is the Non-God, glory be to its absence!!"<BR/><BR/>Do you see what I mean? From an outside perspective, this sort of talk just sounds insane. <BR/><BR/>MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-70817629431880568122008-12-17T10:05:00.000-08:002008-12-17T10:05:00.000-08:00You are right. Many believers do think of God like...You are right. Many believers do think of God like a jolly Santa-Claus.<BR/><BR/>He is not.<BR/><BR/>He is a righteous, perfect, omnipotent person, who has made himself known to us in the person of Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>He is...Who He is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com