tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post2230817421728734877..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: LiarsMatt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-35942892382079982872010-04-20T14:52:00.603-07:002010-04-20T14:52:00.603-07:00Re: Anonymous
"Yes, lets have Daniel Dennet ...Re: Anonymous<br /><br />"Yes, lets have Daniel Dennet decide what is best for our children. He is such a beacon of moral virtue.... "<br /><br />Erm, it wasn't suggested that we should let Daniel Dennett decide what is best for our children, but that we should educate our children about world religions, as Dennett advocates.<br /><br />"In the debate between him and Plantinga Dennet acted like a total asshole. This comes even from his supporters at that lecture."<br /><br />Does the fact that Dennett was at some point rude mean that we shouldn't listen to his suggestions on education? And besides, if Dennett did act like an asshole (A slight overreaction perhaps?), does that preclude Dennett being a moral beacon forever, let alone a fallible human being that can nonetheless have some good suggestions?<br /><br />"But hey why not? Atheism is a great moral philosophy. Just like at the church of Satan who claim themselves to be atheists/ Good stuff!"<br /><br />I don't think that anyone is saying we should teach children the values of Satanism. Of course, we could well teach children about Satanism, along with all other religious points of view. The point of education is to learn, not to be moralized to. Children should be able to make up their own minds about morality, just as they should with regards to religion.<br /><br />"Daniel dennet is trying to make an argument that is derived from ridicule. That is that theist lie to themselves because they struggle to defend themselves...<br /><br />ALERT ALERT this is a RED HERRING as a person who is uncomfortable with themselves can still be right! And this psychological state has NOTHING to do with theist beign right or that God exists!!!"<br /><br />I don't think that Dennett argues that theism or religious belief can be explained psychologically, therefore theism is false (Though if I am incorrect, feel free to show me just where he gives this argument). Rather, Dennett is arguing that if God doesn't exist, belief in God can nonetheless be explained, and so belief in God isn't positive evidence for God's existence.<br /><br />"Yeah so Mr. Dennet is just mad because Santa Claus is more real than him and has more friends..."<br /><br />Perhaps, but that doesn't make his denial of Santa Claus false :)<br /><br />"Dennet thinks he is a psychologist even though he has never formally studied psychology.<br /><br />Just another philosopher that has over stepped the bounds of their field of study - Green cheeze behind chalk boards or counting real verse imaginary sheep.<br /><br />Thus Mr. dennet has no credibility whatsoever to make a clinical assessment of theist's emotional states."<br /><br />Again, can you give an example where Dennett actually reports the belief that he is a psychologist? Probably not, since he admits that he is an "autodidact" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett#Career_in_academia).<br /><br />Nonetheless, Dennett is a co-director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts. But this is beside the point: criticize the arguments, rather than the man. If you don't think that Dennett makes bad arguments for his views, or is incorrect about something, go ahead and say what.<br /><br />"Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in Jesus any more than I believe in Joseph Smith or Haile Selassie. But if we resent being told that we really do believe in god, why should they not resent being told they really don't believe in God? For some statistical percentage this will be true, but using it indiscriminately is stooping to their level of argument."<br /><br />The fact that theists resent being told that they don't really believe doesn't make it false. The same is true of atheism. We should follow the evidence, rather than worry about upsetting people: what's the evidence that atheists aren't really atheists, or that theists aren't really theists?<br /><br />If the evidence shows that either atheists or theists don't implicitly accept their explicit convictions, then so be it.Friendly Neighbourhood Communisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07062168969459536056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-4722569735493853512010-04-16T21:22:00.476-07:002010-04-16T21:22:00.476-07:00Hi MM I certainly believe in beliefs so I can have...Hi MM I certainly believe in beliefs so I can have them. I am sure you do too so you can drink merry with your star trek pals and tell them why your belief in non god is special and perhaps….SEXY<br /><br />But I am sure there are atheist that struggle to defend their position. Some of your disciples here are poorly trained in philosophy and first order logic and don’t know the difference between an implicit and explicit contradiction or derive generalizations from a post meant to ridicule.<br /><br />And yes I like to play wit da atheist who cannot back his position juts you like you do with the church going numb nut who never considered that green cheese may be behind their chalk board. Sure MM you are hardcore at defining the atheist position but your follows not so much. Their easy prey and if I was a man that looked like Santa Claus I may make a ridicule argument that their poor defense of non god shows that that their position is weak. But then again I may not do this.<br /><br />Good luck wit your debate. Maybe easier than debating Professor Plum?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-90140310120092680162010-04-16T21:08:27.222-07:002010-04-16T21:08:27.222-07:00Oh Mikey you dont read well. If you followed the d...Oh Mikey you dont read well. If you followed the discussion you would know that LaVey satanist are atheist. So "LaVey and his pals" refers to the atheist satanist. Reading from this that ALL satanist are atheist i have no idea had you did this. <br /><br />I am not partial to generalizations or people who infer them incorrectly from poor readingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-5972958171279975612010-04-15T20:37:06.849-07:002010-04-15T20:37:06.849-07:00Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in Jes...Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in Jesus any more than I believe in Joseph Smith or Haile Selassie. But if we resent being told that we really do believe in god, why should they not resent being told they really don't believe in God? For some statistical percentage this will be true, but using it indiscriminately is stooping to their level of argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-50286734017737470332010-04-13T13:37:44.675-07:002010-04-13T13:37:44.675-07:00"We can’t fathom how smart, educated, thought..."We can’t fathom how smart, educated, thoughtful people can possibly believe the things that they seem to earnestly report believing. … The simple answer is that they don’t."<br /><br />Exactly. I hope you don't mind me reminding your readers that <a href="http://noonebelievesingod.com" rel="nofollow">there is a whole book on that topic.</a>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16802918328975492093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-81819383797713014022010-04-13T02:19:00.868-07:002010-04-13T02:19:00.868-07:00One last time, Anon, and then I won't waste an...One last time, Anon, and then I won't waste any more with you.<br /><br />This is what you wrote:<br /><br />"Atheism is a great moral philosophy. Just like at the church of Satan who claim themselves to be atheists/ Good stuff!"<br /><br />This is your latest response:<br /><br />"No mikey not all athiest are satanist but all LaVey satanist are atheists. Better reading next time."<br /><br />But this is a distinct change of direction. You equated atheists with LaVey satanists. Now you'd have me think that, no, all along you meant only that LaVey satanists are atheists. (Which, would be interesting, but hardly germane.) You did not. You did not because your goal was to paint the morality of Dennett with the same brush as that of LaVey; to suggest that because both are "atheists," that somehow magically puts them both in the same moral boat. And yet, in ignoring my challenge to demonstrate that Dennet's morality agrees with LaVey's you as much as concede you can't do it. So, why the slander?<br /><br />No, I read you right. If you want to be read differently, say something different.mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-65558453521140819722010-04-12T23:27:53.593-07:002010-04-12T23:27:53.593-07:00Of course, there are many preachers who do believe...Of course, there are many preachers who do believe in God.<br /><br />The Pope , for example, believes God spends his time watching priests rape boys. <br /><br />God sees everything. He has a Divine Remote Control where he can flick from one channel to the next.<br /><br />And on the Catholic Channel, he can watch priests sodomise altar boys.<br /><br />If people believe their god exists, why do they masturbate in front of their god, but not in front of their parents?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-25680522277928391332010-04-12T20:11:03.768-07:002010-04-12T20:11:03.768-07:00Despite his scattered non sequiturs, anon. has a p...Despite his scattered non sequiturs, anon. has a point that didn't come out in the post. Finding a bunch of priests and preachers who confess to not believing in God doesn't show that there is no God, of course. I wasn't pretending otherwise, nor is Dennett. They are what they are: some preachers who have come to doubt what they preach. It may turn out that they are all proven wrong in the end and that God exists, and is really pissed with them, I suppose. <br /><br />What I thought was so compelling and fascinating about the study is the candid and intimate view into the minds of some people who will consistent report in public that they believe in God. From the outside, you'd never know that they don't believe. They give all the common arguments, they say they believe, they act like they believe, they give all the right responses that a believer would give. The surprise is that they don't believe. <br /><br />And these examples make a strong suggestion about how many more of them are out there. For every one like this that Dennett and La Scola found, there must be a hundred or a thousand more who would not confess their real feelings. And that means that when we are having these discussions, it is a real possibility that the person who is pressing the case for God actually doesn't believe at all. <br /><br />So how about you, anon? Do you actually believe what you say you believe, or do you just believe in belief? One easy, and cheap psychological shot would be for me to say that all of these raging tantrums, the name calling, and the erratic accusations suggest that this posting actually struck a nerve and all your protesting is a better indicator that you actually have your doubts about God and you can't face having that exposed. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-75460316869911561452010-04-12T19:37:21.603-07:002010-04-12T19:37:21.603-07:00Dennet thinks he is a psychologist even though he ...Dennet thinks he is a psychologist even though he has never formally studied psychology.<br /><br />Just another philosopher that has over stepped the bounds of their field of study - Green cheeze behind chalk boards or counting real verse imaginary sheep.<br /><br />Thus Mr. dennet has no credibility whatsoever to make a clinical assessment of theist's emotional states.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-63458550615655497632010-04-12T19:28:24.762-07:002010-04-12T19:28:24.762-07:00Daniel dennet is trying to make an argument that i...Daniel dennet is trying to make an argument that is derived from ridicule. That is that theist lie to themselves because they struggle to defend themselves...<br /><br />ALERT ALERT this is a RED HERRING as a person who is uncomfortable with themselves can still be right! And this psychological state has NOTHING to do with theist beign right or that God exists!!!<br /><br />Yeah so Mr. Dennet is just mad because Santa Claus is more real than him and has more friends...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-25715633541413222552010-04-12T19:22:50.507-07:002010-04-12T19:22:50.507-07:00No mikey not all athiest are satanist but all LaVe...No mikey not all athiest are satanist but all LaVey satanist are atheists. Better reading next time.<br /><br />Matt mcormick,<br /><br />You never respond to anybodys post honestly except your own groupies.<br /><br />DM has a point, anon 1, 2, 3 ad infinitum have a point. But NOOO you just attack them for not understanding the issue, which seems to be what someone would do if they are in a jam and cannot rebuttal...<br /><br />Fair enough this is your house but maybe just maybe you should try and understand Paul or fred or any other person that disagrees with you.<br /><br />You just never know who you are talking to on the other end...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-29840078020639531612010-04-12T18:34:39.988-07:002010-04-12T18:34:39.988-07:00I don't suppose it will induce any more constr...I don't suppose it will induce any more constructive comments from our angry anonymous friend, but Satan is yet another supernatural being that I don't see any compelling existence for. <br /><br />Anon, personal attacks and angry non-sequiturs are easy. The difficult response is to try understand the argument being made and actually offer some reasons for doubting the reasoning behind it. Can you do that? Or maybe there's an adult home with you who we could talk to? <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-31624099354595196572010-04-12T18:11:16.764-07:002010-04-12T18:11:16.764-07:00I think it's a common response when people'...I think it's a common response when people's beliefs are challenged and they have no response. <br /><br />When confronted with contrary evidence, the rational person will change his/her mind. The irrational person will respond with insults.<br /><br />C'est la vie...MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-77421310588542062312010-04-12T15:47:10.266-07:002010-04-12T15:47:10.266-07:00My logic's as good as yours, I think. Aren...My logic's as good as yours, I think. Aren't you the one equating all atheists with Anton LaVey? Come on. Show me where Dennett's moral philosophy follows LaVey's. You accuse him of acting like a "total asshole" and you come here doing the same thing!mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-19432752226161644132010-04-12T14:03:39.833-07:002010-04-12T14:03:39.833-07:00Yeah great response EVERY person in the catholic c...Yeah great response EVERY person in the catholic church molested kids! Yeah for atheists logic!<br /><br />BTW, Mr. LaVey and his atheists pals think child molestation via role playing (fantasy environments) is perfectly ok.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-42302378824124470052010-04-12T07:05:50.278-07:002010-04-12T07:05:50.278-07:00On the other hand, I guess we could have the Catho...On the other hand, I guess we could have the Catholic church show us what's best for our children. Or has Dennett been molesting kids below the radar?mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-23525768431708454542010-04-12T06:11:29.723-07:002010-04-12T06:11:29.723-07:00Yes, lets have Daniel Dennet decide what is best f...Yes, lets have Daniel Dennet decide what is best for our children. He is such a beacon of moral virtue....<br /><br />In the debate between him and Plantinga Dennet acted like a total asshole. This comes even from his supporters at that lecture.<br /><br />But hey why not? Atheism is a great moral philosophy. Just like at the church of Satan who claim themselves to be atheists/ Good stuff!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />"LaVeyan Satanism is a religion founded in 1966 by Anton Szandor LaVey. Its teachings are based on individualism, self-indulgence, and "eye for an eye" morality. Unlike Theistic Satanists, LaVeyan Satanists are atheists and agnostics who regard Satan as a symbol of man's inherent nature"<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism#Atheistic.2FDeistic_SatanismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-57664533074434788422010-04-11T17:25:07.739-07:002010-04-11T17:25:07.739-07:00Along that same line, teaching some sort of "...Along that same line, teaching some sort of "critical thinking" well before the college level could seriously help. The idea of a child growing up not learning early how do weigh information and ideas is pretty sickening.<br /><br />I don't ever recall in elementary school or high school being taught "how" to think. Unfortunately, by the time someone reaches 18, 19, or 20 years of age, it's far too late in some cases. <br /><br />I wonder how elementary/HS teachers would feel about that.MHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-34558979310935475282010-04-11T17:19:13.935-07:002010-04-11T17:19:13.935-07:00I'm pretty convinced that the way to break the...I'm pretty convinced that the way to break the cycle and hence the grip on consciousness that the religious delusion has, is to do what we can to cut off the inordinate influence it has on kids. I think giving kids a broad based education about the fundamentals of all world religions, like Dennett advocates, is the best way to inoculate them. That will help them see through the efforts by preachers to establish their doctrines as the exclusive picture of reality. If they know about all the other religions, they'll take mom and dad's less seriously. <br /><br />The way to lessen the hold that religion has on our minds suggested by this set of interviews is to help the clergy liberate themselves from a social institution that has trapped them. Religion thrives on ignorance. Educate everyone and it withers. <br /><br />MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-4701538094256187142010-04-11T17:05:10.420-07:002010-04-11T17:05:10.420-07:00That is a really heartbreaking study to read. Esp...That is a really heartbreaking study to read. Especially in the context of the having nowhere else to go, or feeling "stuck" in their given vocation.<br /><br />Do you think this will encourage more clergy to "come out" as it were? I'm really skeptical of that because of the financial implications, and the potential social ostracization. It seems to me that the people in this article had to have some serious encouragement to do so. <br /><br />Were there any numbers that went with the study? Perhaps an anonymously poll of the clergy in this country? <br /><br />The implications of a person purposely teaching bad information are huge. I'm having a hard time with the idea that they're purposely lying. It's certainly not malicious. Ethical? I don't think so. Moral? I don't know. I can't imagine their struggle within. That seems to be the darkest aspect of this whole thing. I suppose the best thing to do is to encourage people to be honest with themselves. Change can be very frigntening, but they need to know there are people out there just like them. <br /><br />(I resisted the urge to type in all capitals, -'cause then I'd be right and you'd be wrong and there'd be no discussion)<br /> ;)Matthew Howerynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-75469249653112633452010-04-11T16:59:22.980-07:002010-04-11T16:59:22.980-07:00Well stated.Well stated.Tristan Vickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05348780254008374268noreply@blogger.com