tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post15083479810105048..comments2023-10-20T02:08:39.524-07:00Comments on Atheism: Proving The Negative: God Wouldn’t Leave Room for Agnosticism, There Are Agnostics, So There Isn’t A God.Matt McCormickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-3217131888411847822012-12-28T08:12:06.560-08:002012-12-28T08:12:06.560-08:00Suppose the child calls out for his mother but can...Suppose the child calls out for his mother but cannot hear her answer because he has his fingers stuck in his ears. Ron Cramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489485815819841101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7055481607382246572011-07-11T14:30:16.671-07:002011-07-11T14:30:16.671-07:00Great question, Sophia's Lover,
Being angry at...Great question, Sophia's Lover,<br />Being angry at religion, or clutching for emotional reasons are not sound reasons for adopting atheism or believing in God, respectively. But objecting to someone's belief by leveling the ad hominem at them: "You just believe because you're emotionally needy," or "You're just mad at religion because it abused you," or whatever, are fallacious objections. Those objections don't give us any reason to believe or not believe--they are about the person, not the evidence. Only the evidence gives us sufficient grounds for believing or disbelieving. We should keep it to that. Once we start attacking each other personally like that, we've lost sight of the important point: is there a God or isn't there?Matt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-14327832895857716522011-07-11T13:50:44.859-07:002011-07-11T13:50:44.859-07:00Professor, I am an agnostic with atheistic inclina...Professor, I am an agnostic with atheistic inclinations who's researched theism and religion since '97, yet throughout all my studies, one objection that theists make against nontheists which has given me pause on reflection is that they have chosen to disbelieve out of anger and/or frustration with negative life experiences or a desire to live free of restraints. The nontheist, on the other hand, tends to respond that the theist is holding onto God as an emotional/psychological crutch. Now this is definitely a facile explanation, however, the nontheist tends to minimize emotion and psychology's role in decision-making such that this becomes a double-standard. In other words, while it should never be the sole reason for coming to any position, wouldn't it be fair to say that it plays SOME role in both conversion AND de-conversion? What is your view on how we may discern whether someone adopts a belief solely out of desire or for psychological reasons?<br /><br />I thank you for your time.Sophia's Loverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04297455192783722594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-87800846256899296282008-04-17T14:21:00.000-07:002008-04-17T14:21:00.000-07:00This argument is based on a fundamental misunderst...This argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what agnosticism is. No agnostic would ever say that God, were he to exist, has any characteristics like "good" or "all-powerful" "all knowing" or any other anthropomorphic characteristics. If he does exist, then he's the god of the deists - created the universe, then he took off. Comparing the deistic god to someone's mother makes no sense.Juddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09749100872169765077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-36610701116148265192008-04-14T09:54:00.000-07:002008-04-14T09:54:00.000-07:00I suppose I am commenting far too late ... but he...I suppose I am commenting far too late ... but here goes anyway ...<BR/><BR/>I feel the term "agnostic" is being categorized inaccurately here.<BR/><BR/>The popular notion of "agnostic" may suggest indecision, but the term was not coined with that in mind. Huxley meant something closer to what I call "empirical agnosticism", which has nothing to do with being uncertain, and is easily interchangeable with what some call "weak" or "negative" atheism: the lack of belief in [Gg]od(s)/super-nature (which differs, of course, from strong/positive atheism: the belief that there is no [Gg]od(s)/super-nature).<BR/><BR/>My view is that all things observable within nature are ultimately explainable by and through the laws that govern the natural world (whether I am capable of understanding the explanation or not). Which in my mind addresses something much deeper than whether there is or is not a God: Whether it is relevant whether God exists. Like Huxley, I see no logical way I could discern the difference between a deity that abides by my above view of nature and no such deity. If no difference can be discerned then the difference is not relevant.<BR/><BR/>This view can be fairly categorized as "atheist", but I will not do so (for describing myself, at any rate) for several reasons. First, the term was coined to describe this precise view, so it is a much more descriptive term for me. Second, most atheists I have met are strong/positive atheists, and it seems silly for me to foster an ambiguity in terminology when I needn't do so. <BR/><BR/>Finally, I don't find the more pointed and aggressive views of atheism so popular today among non-theists particularly useful (to me) and I'm happy to maintain a distinction between my views and theirs (with all due respect to Dr. McCormick).<BR/><BR/>Having said all that, it's clear that the original post wasn't aimed at what I call "empirical agnosticism". Still, I suggest a broader view of agnosticism than is implied here.R. Paul Wiegandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02063196028854333643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-50272034967901247052008-01-07T18:38:00.000-08:002008-01-07T18:38:00.000-08:00I think the problem is that you seem to want athei...<I> I think the problem is that you seem to want atheism to be an unequivocal no to the question of god. It isn't. </I><BR/><BR/>In my personal understanding and a point I’d like to stress, atheism should be the <B>unequivocal </B> no to god. Someone who may come off as saying there is a possibility of god isn’t undermining this point, merely stating the obvious: you cannot prove a negative. Also, some are attempting to prove to an audience they are not dogmatic (ill-applied in this instance). <BR/><BR/><BR/>The second reason is needless in my book. The only reason why it exists is that the idea of God is so ingrained in our society (and most others) that it—for some—has to at least be considered—it doesn’t. "Philosophy has been corrupted by theologians' blood" ... "whoever has theologians blood in his veins, sees all things in a distorted and dishonest perspective to begin with" (Nietzsche, The Antichrist). To modernize this: we all have religious ideas in our minds by (1) our Culture and (2) our brains, thus our perspectives start skewed to one side (keeping things simple). <BR/><BR/><BR/> I needn’t concede to a slim probability that Santa Claus exists. Nor to ether (a substance literally created by scientists to deal with the propagation of light in space) since Einstein’s theory of relativity. The same applies to god, a made-up entity, for whatever purpose it was originated—fear of death, community, explaining the unexplainable, and so forth. Anyone who truly claims that there is a possibility of God is not an atheist (in my small book). If you want to sit on the fence about it or entertain that small probability, you’re agnostic. And if you cater to an audience to save the dogmatic classification, you’re either (1) being too concerned about others opinions and you should be pitied, or (2) not an atheist. <BR/><BR/><BR/>In any case, I dislike the term atheist, as it stands now, I find too many ignorant about it and are like a religious sheep to the “four horsemen” or “new atheists.”Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02897689004574749311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-73923918254404344442008-01-07T04:49:00.000-08:002008-01-07T04:49:00.000-08:00[...] instead of saying "I am uncertain" you inste...<I>[...] instead of saying "I am uncertain" you instead answer "I don't believe"</I> - Jon<BR/><BR/>The term atheist was coined by, and originally used almost exclusively by theists. So, it really isn't atheists responding, but theists responding for atheists. I, for example, didn't choose to be an atheist. I was born that way. It's simply the description of a belief I do not hold.<BR/><BR/>I suspect the problem is that belief is colloquially understood to equate to truth. But they're very different. I can be uncertain about a truth, but not a belief. A belief is a conscious agreement with a truth. Logically speaking, it isn't coherant to respond "I'm uncertain" to questions of belief, unless one is implying that a belief can he held without the conscious knowledge of the holder. A coherant conversation about god could look like the following:<BR/><BR/>party a) "Do you believe in god?"<BR/>party b) "No, but I believe it's possible."<BR/><BR/>Even though party b holds a belief that is in some ways similar to the belief party a questioned him on, party b's answer is still no. He does not hold the belief originally queried.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for taking the time Jon. I hadn't really grappled with the difference between belief and truth before (which feels kind-of embarrassing), but it's starting to make some sense - I think.Central Content Publisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00253155339560248960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-50832670787049124112008-01-07T00:25:00.000-08:002008-01-07T00:25:00.000-08:00It is interesting to note that when Dawkins gets t...It is interesting to note that when Dawkins gets technical concerning his beliefs, he categorizes himself to be a class of agnostic and he calls himself an atheist for commen sense purposes and for simplicity. He uses probability: "It is very improbable indeed that a god exists". So he is not 100% certain.<BR/><BR/>I see what you mean, it is just funny to think that when someone flips a quarter in the air and asks you if tails will come up and instead of saying "I am uncertain" you instead answer "I don't believe". Instead of telling myself that I am uncertain if I will wake up next morning I instead tell myself "I don't believe". Do you believe that the next die roll will be a six? "Not-yes". <BR/><BR/> So, I come to agree that if we define athiesm as also incuding "not-yes" instead of no, then all agnostics are a class of atheist. But, not all atheists will define it that way, some will say that atheism is and should be an explicit 'no' answer.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-54683109850335496112008-01-06T10:55:00.000-08:002008-01-06T10:55:00.000-08:00"Do you believe in intelligent extraterrestrial li...<I>"Do you believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life within our Galaxy?" My answer "I am uncertain".</I> - Jon<BR/><BR/>If you are uncertain, then you do not believe that the answer to the question is yes. That's all atheism says. I think the problem is that you seem to want atheism to be an unequivocal no to the question of god. It isn't. Much like one can't say that agnosticism means that there is no knowledge of god, god cannot be known, and will never be known, one can't say that atheism necessarily means that god does not exist, god cannot exist, or god will never exist (though some atheists may believe any or all of these).<BR/><BR/>But, if for a second, we imagine that atheism must mean that one unequivocally believes that god does not exist, Daniel Dennet, Sam Harris, Charles Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens all just became agnostics. Each of them not only acknowledges that the absence of god can't be proven, but they claim that things which do not exist cannot be proven. Subsequently, absolute certainty is impossible.Central Content Publisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00253155339560248960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-72521990733541128102008-01-06T01:05:00.000-08:002008-01-06T01:05:00.000-08:00The weakness in my argument above comes from sayin...The weakness in my argument above comes from saying "I don't believe is not equal to not-yes". I am going to stick to my general analogy however because of the semantical and probability problem with equating atheism with some forms of uncertainty.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-58752977631943741712008-01-06T00:58:00.000-08:002008-01-06T00:58:00.000-08:00Central: I will defend the agnostic position. I wi...Central: I will defend the agnostic position. I will stick to the alien analogy because it is a good one. Let the fun begin:<BR/><BR/>So, if someone asks me a series of questions: 1. "Do you believe in extraterrestrial life?" I would answer "yes". Then if that person asks: 2. "Do you believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life?" I would again answer yes. Question 3. "Do you believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life within our Galaxy?" My answer "I am uncertain".<BR/><BR/>Now lets break down that question and answer session. I cannot say that answering in the uncertain for Q#3 with reference to my answers in Q#1 & Q#2 will qaulify that "I don't believe in extraterrestrial life" or that "I don't believe that intelligent extraterrestrial life exists in our galaxy". Just because I am uncertain in Q#3 does not automatically qualify that I don't believe. I don't believe is not equal to not-yes, for being uncertain can contain possible-yes, or plausible-yes. Maybe these are just semantical differences. It is not clear to me that I can be an atheist with respect to Q#3 just because I am not certain, for I could believe that it is highly plausible/probable, i.e. 99.999% chance that it is true, although I am not 100% certain, and so do not want to jump to a strict yes or no.<BR/><BR/>So, I think that there are more distinctions and categories that we can chop up here.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-7720239550977560742008-01-05T20:09:00.000-08:002008-01-05T20:09:00.000-08:00Antony Flew made the distinction between positive ...Antony Flew made the distinction between positive atheism and negative atheism. By negative atheism, he meant someone who simply lacks a belief in God. So that would include people who aren't sure, who don't care, who never thought about it, and rabid, foaming at the mouth atheists like myself. But a positive atheist is someone who actually has the belief "There is no God." They affirm that no such thing exists. <BR/><BR/>I haven't ever found that distinction to be that useful. Seems to me that using atheist for someone who believes that there is no God, and using agnostic for someone who isn't sure works just fine. But as you guys have pointed out, an agnostic lacks the belief, "There is a God." <BR/><BR/>I posted this argument because argument against agnosticism, classically understood, are rare and a bit hard to work out. If someone is clever and really determined, I think it could be harder to force them off of the agnostic position. Showing the problems with theism is much easier, I find. It's just that most people don't seem to be bothered by the glaring problems with theism. <BR/><BR/>Another really useful distinction for reference: A wide atheist is someone who think there are not gods, no divine or supernatural beings whatsoever. And a narrow atheist is one like we've been talking about who just thinks that the classic omnipotent, omniscience, and all good God does not exist. <BR/><BR/>A lot of people, even skeptics and narrow atheists, think that wide atheism is unreasonable. Many people think that you just couldn't prove that NO gods whatsoever exist.<BR/><BR/>I don't think it's any harder than concluding reasonably that no elves, pixies, dwarves, fairies, goblins, or other mythical creates exist. I don't have to give a decisive proof against every possible mythological, magical being in order to conclude that none of them exist. In the end, I think that there are no gods whatsoever for the same reason. The omni God is the one that most people affirm and the one that is most philosophically interesting. And all the other lesser beings are silly (and don't exist.) <BR/><BR/>But my being so flippant will aggravate some people no doubt. <BR/><BR/>I gave a talk at an atheist club meeting once. They were fine with my ripping on God for an hour, but then I started to criticize the view that aliens landed at Roswell, New Mexico and a couple of them got really mad at me and started lecturing me about the government coverup. <BR/><BR/>MMMatt McCormickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17071078570021986664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-57001532486792603912008-01-05T11:13:00.000-08:002008-01-05T11:13:00.000-08:00Jon: I think the problem is that atheism isn't a "...Jon: I think the problem is that atheism isn't a "no" answer, but rather, it's a not-yes answer. A not-yes answer includes no, yes & no, and neither yes nor no. It's also worth noting that atheism is an answer to the question "do you believe in god" rather than "does god exist". So, if you do not explicitly answer yes to the question of god, you are answering not-yes, which means you're an atheist. You can be an agnostic atheist, but you are still an atheist.<BR/><BR/>If I apply this to the question of "do you believe in extraterrestrial life", the answer that's equivalent to atheism is "I don't believe in extraterrestrial life". You may be simply undecided, ambivalent, agnostic, or sure that there isn't extraterrestrial life, but all of these positions answer not-yes to the question of belief in extraterrestrial life.<BR/><BR/>(hope I'm not hijacking this thread too much)Central Content Publisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00253155339560248960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-28940260622133515872008-01-04T20:21:00.000-08:002008-01-04T20:21:00.000-08:00To central content publisher: Maybe another analog...To central content publisher: <BR/><BR/>Maybe another analogy to draw from is this: <BR/><BR/>Is there intelligent life that is at least as advanced as ancient Egypt besides us within a 20,000 light year radius of our section of the Milky Way Galaxy? Some may speculate/reason/calculate yes, some no, and some "agnostic". <BR/><BR/>To me that sounds reasonable, but is there anything wrong with that?Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-10752609515332532912008-01-04T15:18:00.000-08:002008-01-04T15:18:00.000-08:00Maybe you folks can clear something up for me abou...Maybe you folks can clear something up for me about agnosticism. The following, to me, seems true:<BR/><BR/>Belief in God is a binary. One either believes, or one does not believe. If someone doesn't actively believe, that person is an atheist. The observance that god is not knowable (the agnostic observation) doesn't say anything about whether one believes or not, but instead observes that conclusive evidence is lacking. So, there are atheist agnostics, and there are theist agnostics, but there's no such thing as an agnostic who is neither theist nor atheist (and, I think it goes without saying that there isn't a position which is both theist and atheist).<BR/><BR/>To draw a parallel, it's much like asking someone if they think a defendant is guilty. If they do not think a defendant is guilty, they think the defendant is not-guilty - though not necessarily innocent. Likewise, atheism means that one doesn't believe in God, though one doesn't necessarily disbelieve. Of course, many atheists do actively disbelieve, but that isn't an essential ingredient for atheism.<BR/><BR/>I'm asking this because agnosticism is often presented as a sort-of third position, which strikes me as incoherant.Central Content Publisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00253155339560248960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-43178235405906802292008-01-04T06:39:00.000-08:002008-01-04T06:39:00.000-08:00In some instances, agnostics might have a problem ...In some instances, agnostics might have a problem with the idea or term of "God" as we tend to assume various characteristics of one. When I have stated that I am agnostic it was only to call attention to what everyone assumes about a higher power(s). I think the evidence that there are atheists, agnostics, and religious people of all colors is evidence that these gods that are asserted about must be wrong. If there was a true God, there would be no way that there would be so much diversity.<BR/><BR/>However, if culture and how we grow up affects our beliefs then it is more possible that are social upbringing affects what we believe the most.t.k.fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07885392861916837443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8716347331682132223.post-6782495058524269742008-01-03T22:21:00.000-08:002008-01-03T22:21:00.000-08:00Good stuff, that's the 1st time I heard this argum...Good stuff, that's the 1st time I heard this argument: Argument from inconclusiveness/abandonment or absence. <BR/><BR/>The agnostic might object that a God could appear absent or inconclusive on purpose in order to maximize certain virtues in humanity- like courage, or maximizing a continual striving/searching for the truth. <BR/><BR/>I suppose the rebuttal to that objection itself would be the burden of proof argument.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02877962468047811190noreply@blogger.com